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bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmhjordan23 (Post 729805)
Just saying if I were on the losing end, would hate to lose on foul like that because if it were my team, I would be mad at the player that he was out of position and he forced the official to call it.

Slightly better, but I still think you're missing the point.

A team doesn't "lose on [a] foul." They win or lose on the score, which is always cumulative of the entire game, including the calls you make.

In a close game, something you may or may not have called in the first quarter affects the game's outcome every bit as something you may or may not have called in the last minute.

In basketball, we often hear, "THAT decided the game." It's never just THAT. It's always a series of things. To pin an outcome on one play -- no matter how memorable it may be -- is really a lazy-minded outlook. In a close game, you can often find at least a dozen things that could have changed the outcome.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 01:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729923)
Slightly better, but I still think you're missing the point.

A team doesn't "lose on [a] foul." They win or lose on the score, which is always cumulative of the entire game, including the calls you make.

In a close game, something you may or may not have called in the first quarter affects the game's outcome every bit as something you may or may not have called in the last minute.

In basketball, we often hear, "THAT decided the game." It's never just THAT. It's always a series of things. To pin an outcome on one play -- no matter how memorable it may be -- is really a lazy-minded outlook. In a close game, you can often find at least a dozen things that could have changed the outcome.

While this is all true, the earlier something happens (such as an official's mistake that leads to an open three point shot in the third quarter) the more chance the other team has to make up for the mistake. It is possible (I know I'm somewhat backtracking on previous statements) for an official to make a bad call or no-call at the end of the game that actually costs a team the game.

bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 729931)
While this is all true, the earlier something happens (such as an official's mistake that leads to an open three point shot in the third quarter) the more chance the other team has to make up for the mistake.

Very well, then. Let's say that you completely kick a block/charge call in the first quarter. A1 drives to the basket, goes airborne, B2 hits LGP too late, the basket is good, and a crash ensues. You stupidly call a charge and wave off the basket. How is Team A ever going to make up for those two points you just negated?

The only thing Team A can do it is keep playing and do the best it can. I don't see how it can "make up" for your mistake.

Quote:

It is possible (I know I'm somewhat backtracking on previous statements) for an official to make a bad call or no-call at the end of the game that actually costs a team the game.
You can certainly affect a close game's outcome at its end, but in reality, no more than you can affect it via a first-quarter kick. While plays and score situations certainly cascade as the game goes on, you can still affect a close game's outcome at any time. The question is whether anyone will remember it, and people are typically too caught up in the game's emotion to remember something early.

Mind you, that doesn't give anyone permission not to bring their A-game early. Quite the contrary, bring it and maintain it throughout. You will have an effect in a close game, just make sure it's not a negative one.

bob jenkins Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729968)
Very well, then. Let's say that you completely kick a block/charge call in the first quarter. A1 drives to the basket, goes airborne, B2 hits LGP too late, the basket is good, and a crash ensues. You stupidly call a charge and wave off the basket. How is Team A ever going to make up for those two points you just negated?

Read it as "overcome", not "make up".

And, the fact is, that the closer to the end of the game, the more scrutiny there is on the players, the coaches and the officials.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:30pm

Are you going to suggest a team plays the same in the last minute with a 2 point lead as they do when down by 2 points? Or even when they're tied? You take away two points from a team with a minute left, they can possibly recover. You take away two points with no time on the clock, they can't.

Talk all you want about FTs missed and layups missed (and they aren't irrelevant), but let's not pretend a mistake with 2 minutes left is the same as a mistake with 2 seconds remaining.

bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 729974)
And, the fact is, that the closer to the end of the game, the more scrutiny there is on the players, the coaches and the officials.

No question. I submit, though, that it has a lot to do with what most people can take in. If you were to take a step back and analyze the totality of a close game, wouldn't you likely find a number of things that could have affected its outcome?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Are you going to suggest a team plays the same in the last minute with a 2 point lead as they do when down by 2 points? Or even when they're tied?

Of course not! How did you connect those dots?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Talk all you want about FTs missed and layups missed (and they aren't irrelevant), but let's not pretend a mistake with 2 minutes left is the same as a mistake with 2 seconds remaining.

I'm not talking about the blame game here.

My point is that, in a close game, our actions always affect the outcome. The belief that officials shouldn't affect the outcome is unrealistic, and it usually comes from what people can remember. People typically move on from something you kicked earlier in the game, but when you analyze a game objectively, what you do indeed plays a role, whether people remember it or not.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 02:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729981)
Of course not! How did you connect those dots?

Let's find the dots:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 729931)
While this is all true, the earlier something happens (such as an official's mistake that leads to an open three point shot in the third quarter) the more chance the other team has to make up for the mistake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729968)
Very well, then. Let's say that you completely kick a block/charge call in the first quarter. A1 drives to the basket, goes airborne, B2 hits LGP too late, the basket is good, and a crash ensues. You stupidly call a charge and wave off the basket. How is Team A ever going to make up for those two points you just negated? The only thing Team A can do it is keep playing and do the best it can. I don't see how it can "make up" for your mistake.
You can certainly affect a close game's outcome at its end, but in reality, no more than you can affect it via a first-quarter kick....

I'm sorry, but what you wrote above (particularly what I highlighted without otherwise altering) leads to the following question:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 729975)
Are you going to suggest a team plays the same in the last minute with a 2 point lead as they do when down by 2 points?

Your suggestion that a kicked block/charge call in the first quarter is just as vital to the end of the game as the same kicked call with 2 seconds left is silly. If it's not what you meant, it's certainly what you wrote.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729981)
No question. I submit, though, that it has a lot to do with what most people can take in. If you were to take a step back and analyze the totality of a close game, wouldn't you likely find a number of things that could have affected its outcome?

I know this was posed to bob, but my answer is, "of course, you'll find plays that affected the outcome. But their significance on the game is diminished in comparison to events that happened in closer proximity to the end."

If A1 misses two FTs that would have tied the game with a minute left, it's a big deal but not insurmountable. If he misses those same game-tying FTs with 1 second left, overcoming becomes even more difficult. If he misses those same game-tying FTs with no time left, the error has now become insurmountable.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 03:03pm

The same applies to missed calls or kicked rules. If I wipe off a game-tying score with 60 seconds left; they can possibly recover. If I wipe it with no time left, they cannot. Whether the score got wiped due to a player's error (travel, PC foul, etc) or my error (bad call, poor rules knowledge) makes no difference WRT the ability of the team's ability to recover.

bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 03:25pm

Okay, fair enough.

Now, allow me to connect your dots.

"Overcome" seems to be the key verb here. Are you saying that it's okay to kick a call, provided that a team can overcome it?

bob jenkins Mon Feb 14, 2011 03:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729995)
Okay, fair enough.

Now, allow me to connect your dots.

"Overcome" seems to be the key verb here. Are you saying that it's okay to kick a call, provided that a team can overcome it?

Yes, That's exactly what we're saying.

/sarcasm.

bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 03:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 729998)
Yes, That's exactly what we're saying.

/sarcasm.

That was Snaq's question, Bob. I didn't see an answer to your question a few posts back.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 03:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729995)
Okay, fair enough.

Now, allow me to connect your dots.

"Overcome" seems to be the key verb here. Are you saying that it's okay to kick a call, provided that a team can overcome it?

Good grief. I'll let Bob's response speak for me as well.

bainsey Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 730001)
Good grief. I'll let Bob's response speak for me as well.

I'll take that as a "no," which proves my point. You can affect the outcome of a game with a kicked call at any time. The only difference, as Bob pointed out, is the scrutiny is greater at the end. That's because people can only remember so much.

Adam Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 729995)
Okay, fair enough.

Now, allow me to connect your dots.

"Overcome" seems to be the key verb here. Are you saying that it's okay to kick a call, provided that a team can overcome it?

And you're going to have to do one of three things here, it seems.
1. Acknowledge that a late mistake is more damaging than an early mistake.
2. Acknowledge that you think players and coaches don't make adjustments late in the game based on the score.
3. Simply live with the cognitive dissonance.

bob jenkins Mon Feb 14, 2011 04:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 730003)
I'll take that as a "no," which proves my point. You can affect the outcome of a game with a kicked call at any time. The only difference, as Bob pointed out, is the scrutiny is greater at the end. That's because people can only remember so much.

Please.

If you have a choice (and you really don't), then you'd rather kick a call at the beginning of the game than at the end.

All missed calls affect the game. Those at the end affect the game more.

No one said (I don't think) that missed calls at the beginning don't affect the game.


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