End of game
I know the philosophy is that a foul in the 1st QT is a foul in the 4th QT. 8th grade boys, 3rd place game tied with 5 sec left. Team A drives the endline (not very hard) and team B was in legal guarding position until he gave one of those hip checks. In the bonus, hits 1 and team goes on to win by 1. Coach didn't say much about it, but the fans were definitely on us. Saying that was weak. You hate to call a foul like that to decide the game but it is still a foul. I know the proper thing is to call it (my partners call), but would anybody let that go.
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The crew needs to be consistant. Either it's a call you BOTH would make at either end of the court or not. Period. Either the player was hip-checked out of bounds or not. |
at the end of the game, my only criteria is to make sure that it is a "solid" foul...marginal contact plays get no whistle from me...
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If the defender had the dribbler in a hammerlock, some of the fans would have said it was weak.
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To the OP, you said it yourself, the defender hip checked a player out of bounds. If you believed the hip check disadvantaged the player, then call the foul. Fans will b**ch and moan regardless of what you call. Some fans expect everything short of a cross body tackle to be ignored at the end. |
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Change it to "You hate for a kid to commit such a foul to decide the game..." |
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One call never, ever decides a game. The totality of every single minute does. Don't give into the myopic behavior of others. |
Okay I will reword some things. I never ever care what the fans think. Second, I had no probably with the call. Just saying if I were on the losing end, would hate to lose on foul like that because if it were my team, I would be mad at the player that he was out of position and he forced the official to call it.
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And the person I was working with at the time has a tendancy to not blow his whistle loud enough. Makes it difficult to sell the call IF it happens to be questionable to the average fan.
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When did we ever have to sell a call to a fan? Or to a coach for that matter? The call sells itself if it's the right call. And that's all we should worry about; getting the call right. JMHO..... |
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but the fans were definitely on us.
if you HADN'T called it, the other team's fans would have been on you. |
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A team doesn't "lose on [a] foul." They win or lose on the score, which is always cumulative of the entire game, including the calls you make. In a close game, something you may or may not have called in the first quarter affects the game's outcome every bit as something you may or may not have called in the last minute. In basketball, we often hear, "THAT decided the game." It's never just THAT. It's always a series of things. To pin an outcome on one play -- no matter how memorable it may be -- is really a lazy-minded outlook. In a close game, you can often find at least a dozen things that could have changed the outcome. |
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The only thing Team A can do it is keep playing and do the best it can. I don't see how it can "make up" for your mistake. Quote:
Mind you, that doesn't give anyone permission not to bring their A-game early. Quite the contrary, bring it and maintain it throughout. You will have an effect in a close game, just make sure it's not a negative one. |
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And, the fact is, that the closer to the end of the game, the more scrutiny there is on the players, the coaches and the officials. |
Are you going to suggest a team plays the same in the last minute with a 2 point lead as they do when down by 2 points? Or even when they're tied? You take away two points from a team with a minute left, they can possibly recover. You take away two points with no time on the clock, they can't.
Talk all you want about FTs missed and layups missed (and they aren't irrelevant), but let's not pretend a mistake with 2 minutes left is the same as a mistake with 2 seconds remaining. |
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My point is that, in a close game, our actions always affect the outcome. The belief that officials shouldn't affect the outcome is unrealistic, and it usually comes from what people can remember. People typically move on from something you kicked earlier in the game, but when you analyze a game objectively, what you do indeed plays a role, whether people remember it or not. |
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If A1 misses two FTs that would have tied the game with a minute left, it's a big deal but not insurmountable. If he misses those same game-tying FTs with 1 second left, overcoming becomes even more difficult. If he misses those same game-tying FTs with no time left, the error has now become insurmountable. |
The same applies to missed calls or kicked rules. If I wipe off a game-tying score with 60 seconds left; they can possibly recover. If I wipe it with no time left, they cannot. Whether the score got wiped due to a player's error (travel, PC foul, etc) or my error (bad call, poor rules knowledge) makes no difference WRT the ability of the team's ability to recover.
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Okay, fair enough.
Now, allow me to connect your dots. "Overcome" seems to be the key verb here. Are you saying that it's okay to kick a call, provided that a team can overcome it? |
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/sarcasm. |
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1. Acknowledge that a late mistake is more damaging than an early mistake. 2. Acknowledge that you think players and coaches don't make adjustments late in the game based on the score. 3. Simply live with the cognitive dissonance. |
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If you have a choice (and you really don't), then you'd rather kick a call at the beginning of the game than at the end. All missed calls affect the game. Those at the end affect the game more. No one said (I don't think) that missed calls at the beginning don't affect the game. |
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I do think a mistake made with 1 second has more potential to change the actual outcome (who wins or loses) than a mistake made 1 minute into the 1st quarter. Where I struggle is in understanding how this is even debatable. |
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I guarantee you that if you and I were in camp and you kicked a call big-time in the 1st quarter and I kicked a called in the last minute with the score tied and all other things being equal, you are going to come out with a higher rating than me. Difference being is that your 1st quarter kicked call will just be thought of a brain-fart while my last minute kicked call will be thought of as me wilting under pressure. My kicked call will also be looked at as hampering a team's chance to win that game. You may not agree with that philosophy but that is the reality of the situation. Tell me this, who's interception was more detrimental to his team's chances of winning, Manning's pick-6 against the Saints or Big Ben's pick-6 against the Packers? Both put their teams down by 14 points. |
"If you're gonna kick one, dont make it a gamer!" - Violet Palmer
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However, let's look at your camp example. Would it be a fair evaluation to say that you wilted with your late-game kick? Could you have simply had a brain fart, too, or is it right to jump all the way to pressure crack? It sounds to me like the evaluator could also be too caught up in the emotion of the situation. It's true that people are going to be a lot more emotional regarding a last-minute or last-second kick, but I submit the only way to be accurate is to take emotion out of the equation. Look at it this way. Let's say you had a play-by-play print-out of a one-point game, complete with a list of calls that were confirmed to be kicked. If those kicks affect the score at any time, they can certainly affect the outcome. Just because they're not fresh in someone's mind, doesn't mean it never happened. Others may "feel good" that they can overcome your mistake, but when you take the emotion out, your error still played a role. This is where I make my point that officials affecting the outcome of a close game is inevitable. That's not to be flippant. On the contrary, everything we do matters out there, so it may be better not to get caught up in the late-game hype. Quote:
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Another thing to add is some people may say officials tend to call more fouls late in the game. The only reason that may be true is because teams tend to amp up the intensity towards the end which may causes some to play a little out of control.
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When we take a overhead look most people will say Pittsburgh had recovered from that pick-6 by the 4th quarter and the mistake Mendenhahl made had more affect on the final outcome. That's just my opinion but I think you see what I'm getting at. I know there is one cliche' I've heard from the very first time I started attending camps. "39 minutes of perfect officiating can be ruined and forgotten by 1 big mistake in the final minute". |
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I had one buzzer-beater game this year. Team A had to go the length of the court, down 1, I was the L, :07 left. Just before my partner administered the throw in, all I could think of was, "don't.... miss... anything!" I braced for any impending play in the lane. Of course, it never got there. My partner had a hand-check at the division line with :02 left, double bonus. A1 missed both, but A2 got the rebound, and got the shot off with it falling at the buzzer. Now, Team B's fans were grumpy about my partner's last call, so all the focus is on him. But, there's no question that I may have done some things during that game to affect its outcome. That's the reality. But, as you correctly pointed out, it's likely not the perception. |
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The score is always cumulative of the entire game, but the wider the margin, the less likely your calls will affect its outcome (unless your calls are so ridiculously lopsided toward one team that you need to be called on the carpet). |
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Aw, man! I thought we were done here.
My initial point to this... Quote:
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What decides the outcome of the game? The score. How long do we keep score? For the entire game, not just the final seconds. It's very easy to get caught up in the emotions and drama of the final seconds. I get caught up in them, too. Naturally, it's what people remember. But, let's put our heads above the emotions (as we officials are expected to do). In the grand scheme of things, the final seconds of a close game don't mean jack squat without everything else that happened during the game's entirety. "THAT PLAY decided the game" is an emotional statement. When you look at the game objectively, the game is always decided via totality. |
MANAGING THE LAST FOUR MINUTES OF THE GAME.
In a close competitive contest the last four minutes of the game are the most important. That is not to say that the rest of the game is unimportant, but in a close game everything that happens during the last four minutes is magnified in the eyes of players, coaches and fans. It is at the four minute mark of a close game that everyone involved realizes that each and every play is vital and each and every call made by an official is a potential game decider. It is vitally important that the officials don’t change their approach to officiating the game during the last four minutes of a close contest. What was or wasn’t a foul in the first four minutes of the game must be called the same during the last four minutes when the game is on the line. In some instances officials tend to call what was a good block in the first quarter a foul at the two- minute mark of the fourth quarter. Slow down just a little bit more during the last four minutes of a close game. Slow your whistle down when calling fouls and violations. Slow down just a tad when resuming play with a throw-in or free throw. Slow down and be certain that Team A is in the bonus or the double bonus. Slow down when reporting fouls. Slow down and make sure you have communicated all pertinent information to your partner(s) if a technical foul is called. Anticipate time-outs even better during the last four minutes of the game. Know how many of each length of TO's each team has. Anticipate that a team may want a time out after the other team has made two or three baskets in a row, or when a player is trapped and in danger of having a five second violation called, or when the opposition has scored the tying or go ahead basket with just seconds remaining. Watch the players on their way to the bench after a time out has been called. This is aperiod of the game when emotions run high. During the last four minutes of the game always make sure both coaches are aware of where the ball will be played in following a time out. Don’t assume the coach knows that the ball is coming in from the sideline, while in fact he is drawing up a play thinking it is coming in from the end line. The C in three and the lead in two should always anticipate a designed play involving a back screen after a time out near the end of the game. Officials should use the time-outs during the last four minutes of the game just as the teams do. Get together and review the current situation. Which team is ahead? Which teams are in the bonus or double bonus? Who has to foul if they miss the free throw? Always anticipate the possibility of an intentional foul. Last second plays after a time out can really get officials in hot water if they are not on their toes. Anticipate throws from A1 to A2 along the end line out of bounds. Anticipate the defenders reaching through the boundary line slapping the ball or committing fouls. Be ready for the player throwing the ball in to run along the end line trying to bait the defenders into running through a screen. The last four minutes of a close game is when officials must work the hardest, get the best looks and use their best judgment. It is the time for the best communication with partners, coaches, players and scorers and timers. It is the time to know which official is ruling on the last shot. It is the time to be ready for anything. |
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This thread kinda warped over time, did it not? The OP, I think, recognized the relative importance of the final seconds in the scheme of things. He also feels, apparently, that a bad no-call is better than a bad call. I would agree. But what I get out of the OP is that he is asking if he should change his standard of making a call in the final seconds to help avoid making a bad call in this circumstance. I think most of us agree the answer to this is no.
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Your standard for fouls needs to be the same from tip to final horn. The idea that a correctly called foul takes the game away from the players needs to be rejected for the mistaken belief that it is. |
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It's better to miss something that happened than to "see" something that didn't. |
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In that respect, the late bad call is distinct from the early one, and in a close game might be sufficient to decide, determine, or otherwise affect the outcome. What's emotional about that? The point concerns how much time a team has to overcome a disadvantage inflicted by an official's bad call. |
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INC vs. IC
They both have the exact same thing in common... "incorrect." |
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You want to make 100% sure there's a foul before you call it. You do not have to be 100% sure there isn't a foul before letting it go. The concept applies all game long. You obviously don't want to make either mistake, but you've already admitted we choose to err on one side vs the other. |
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1. It's not the only reason. We apply the same philosophy to travel calls, and they don't "accumulate." 2. "foul accumulation" never ceases to matter. |
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To many officials swallow their whistles in the final seconds of the game and let players get creamed because they don't want to "affect" the outcome of the game. Are you really suggesting it's better for the game to do that than to kick it the other way? |
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That said, I don't believe it's a blanket statement where the significance of the impact is always inversely proportional to the time remaining. It may be a generality, but it isn't always the case. Again, I point to the block/charge kick example I made. There's no way to make up for that. And again, as tref pointed out with his post, people often remember the last four minutes of a game, due to its magnification. To paraphrase my point, often that magnification is so great, that people easily lose sight on the rest of the events that caused the game's outcome. |
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The number of fouls don't matter after the game ends, but they certainly can matter with 20 seconds left. Besides, this is a pointless argument, you don't call any fouls after the game ends. Quote:
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Can they get "those" two points? Obviously not, but they can sure try to get two "different" points. Strategies change now, they'll likely take a shot, or a defensive risk, that they wouldn't have otherwise. You do the same thing as time expires, they're screwed out of a chance to win the game. |
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This whole argument does indeed boil down to seeing the foul but bottling it because it's better to not call a foul than to call a foul. The same injury is done to the game either way but the ref consoles himself that he wasn't really sure when he was/should have been. |
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Whether he was out of position is a completely different argument as well. We're only talking about a case where the official thinks there may have been a foul; not where he saw a foul but simply didn't have the stones to call it; or worse yet decided he didn't want to "take the game away from the kids." |
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It's just that we have to accept it. |
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Either way, you must have some other reason for applying the philosophy to violations or you wouldn't do it. I'm just saying you can use your own reasons and apply those to fouls, also, unless there's some reason they don't apply. Quote:
I agree that missed calls hurt the game, but I disagree that they hurt it just as much as phantom calls. |
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The dispute was with your "just as much" insinuation. |
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I'm not saying the two points can't be costly. No one has. But the more time a team has to overcome the errors, the less I feel sorry for them. |
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That's not a bad call determining the outcome? Or you're going to tell me that the FT contributed. :rolleyes: Well then how about this one: team down by 2, last second shot, clearly off in time, official mistakenly waves it off, shot goes in (if it's a 2 we should go to OT, if it's a 3 the game's over). That's not a bad call determining the outcome? Again: it seems to me that you're not just wrong, you're obviously wrong. I can't imagine why you're disputing these points. |
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Good example of the false magnification of the importance of a call at the end:
Years ago, one of the first varsity games I ever called. Visitors trailed the entire game, the outcome was apparently decided. Mostly subs were in the game. Visitors threw in some 3's, got a couple of turnovers, and all of a sudden it's a one point game in the last few seconds. Pressure in the backcourt and the ball is knocked out, home to inbound right in front of visitors bench with 1 second on the clock. V1, 6'5" center, pressures the throw-in, extending over the line up to his armpits. I give the warning. He backs up, then, on the count of 3, steps up and does the same thing again. T Visitors bench threw a fit. Home missed both free throws, threw it in, and the game was over. V principal called my assignor to complain about the call, saying, among other things, that it had cost them a chance to win the game. On the contrary, had I not made this (proper) call, and the pressure resulted in a turnover, it would have given them a chance to win which they should not have had. |
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Good Article ...
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