"Pivot-Cheek"

rainmaker · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 02:22am

Kid secures ball while lying on her back. She sits up, and then pivots on her rear. Is this legal? I can't remember what we decided, the last time we discussed it. I didn't call it....

JRutledge · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 03:05am

Legal if I understand what you just discribed. It is only a travel if the ball handler tries to get up without a dribble. Setting up off a ball handlers back is not illegal.

Peace

Nevadaref · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 03:08am

The play you describe is legal in high school.
Take a look at the casebook 4.43.5B
Also note that the concept of a pivot is only defined with regard to a foot. There is no such thing as a pivot butt, knee, elbow, head, etc.
I believe you must look at the player's feet to determine traveling. In your case, if the player is spinning on her butt, consider how is she generating the power for the spin. Is she pushing off on the floor with her hands or feet? If she is using her feet to turn in circles I would call a travel if her foot movements violate the traveling restrictions in 4-43. ie pick up and put back down.
To support this claim I cite the definition of traveling in 4-43 and the definition of pivot in 4-33:
"Traveling is moving a FOOT OR FEET in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball."
"A pivot takes place when a player who is holding the ball steps once, or more than once, in any direction with the same foot while the other foot, called the pivot foot, is kept at its point of contact with the floor."
These rules say nothing about moving your butt! Therefore, we must consider butt movements as unrestricted and legal. So, I say that if the girl sits up, then picks up both feet and holds them in the air, she may push on the floor with her hands and cause herself to spin on her butt like a top if she so desires!!! I would allow it as a legal play. Of course, one of my partners would probably call a travel, so my whistle is a moot point.
Also remember that if a player dives for a ball on the floor, obtains possession, and then slides, it is not traveling. Sliding is legal until the player's momentum stops.
Lastly, I will concede that this is definitely a gray area in the rules and that different officials will have different opinions on the play.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Nov 10th, 2002 at 04:01 AM]

Jay R · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 09:22am

In FIBA, rolling on the floor is considered travelling. Is that the same in NF and NCAA?

Having said that, I don't know that pivoting on your butt constitutes a travel.

Nevadaref · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 09:27am

Yes, Jay,
In HS rolling from front to back or from back to front is a travel.
I believe it is the same in NCAA, but we will have to get a definitive another from an NCAA official as I am not one.
But (no pun intended) having a clear understanding of the rolling interpretation doesn't seem to help one bit with the butt question, now does it!

rainmaker · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 07:10pm

We talked about it here six months or a year ago. I just cant remember what we decided, and I can't find the thread.

BktBallRef · #7 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 07:28pm

If he/she doesn't make any further attempt to get up, I've got nothing.

rainmaker · #8 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 07:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
If he/she doesn't make any further attempt to get up, I've got nothing.

Even if she uses here feet to propel herself as NevadaRef pointed out?

BktBallRef · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 07:59pm

The question is is she trying to get up or is she moving to avoid being tied up by an opponent? If she simply lifts a cheek in the process of making a pass, I have nothing.

Jay R · #10 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 08:15pm

We had our zone meeting tonight and discussed this type of situation.

Our presenter's point of view was to treat the butt as a
pivot area. Thus with that definition, the player would be pivoting on their butt.

On a related topic, A1 is holding the ball with both knees on the floor. A1 lifts one knee. Travel?

BktBallRef · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 08:37pm

Well, according to your presenter, wouldn't that be a pivot knee?

Jay R · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 09:07pm

That was exactly his interpretation. I'm not sure that I agree though.

BktBallRef · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 09:46pm

Nor do I. As I wrote previously, if you believe the player is attempting to get up or moving to prevent the defense from getting the ball, call the travel. JMHO

RookieDude · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 10:05pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
The question is is she trying to get up or is she moving to avoid being tied up by an opponent? If she simply lifts a cheek in the process of making a pass, I have nothing.

That was one question...then another question arose..."Can she use her feet to propel her in circles?"

I say sure, as long as she dosen't try to get up.
Even though her feet are being lifted and pushed back on the floor to propel her...she still has her butt as the "pivot".

RD

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #15 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 10, 2002, 10:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Kid secures ball while lying on her back. She sits up, and then pivots on her rear. Is this legal? I can't remember what we decided, the last time we discussed it. I didn't call it....

By pivoting on her tuckus, do you mean that she rotated her entire body using her tuckus as the center of the circle and her feet described the circle?