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Wed Nov 06, 2002, 03:33pm
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I was working two-man last night with a veteran (23 years) official in Missouri. He was lead, he called a foul on the baseline. I thought it was a shooting foul so I instructed the players to line up. After reporting the foul, he said it was non-shooting.
The coach questioned whether or not his player was shooting so he (my partner) came to me and said, "I had the foul on the floor. What did you see?" I simply stated, "I'm not going to change your call," and I put the ball into play without further argument from the coach. From my angle, it looked like the foul occured during the act of shooting, but I was out in the trail position. Question: 1. Should I have over-ruled him since he asked, or did I do the right thing? 2. When is it proper to over-rule?
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My Greatest Call? I Trusted Christ! 
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Wed Nov 06, 2002, 03:45pm
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Quote:
Peace
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Let us get into "Good Trouble." ----------------------------------------------------------- Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
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Wed Nov 06, 2002, 03:51pm
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I think the rule is, you should never overrule. Never. You may go and offer your partner the opportunity to change his or her own call, but it can never be overruled. I overruled a call once, but I should not have. I lost my temper with my partner, and got... well, I guess hasty would be the best word. I'll never do it again.
The general agreement on this board is that Mick has the last word on working with a partner who makes calls that you'd like to over-rule: Get in, Get done, Get out...
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Wed Nov 06, 2002, 04:25pm
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I would worry less about the "over-rule" and more on pregame.
You should know before he reports that foul, what you are doing. The whole siuation could have been prevented with better communication. As to your "over-rule" question, the only time you may want to pull him aside and ask what it going on, is if he is mis-applying a rule. Even then you tread lightly. This was a judgement call, keep out.
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Wed Nov 06, 2002, 04:30pm
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My question is, why didn't you already know it wasn't a shooting foul? Isn't the mechanic (and good game management) for the calling official to indicate to his partner whether we're shooting freethrows, or throwing the ball in?
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Brian Johnson
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Wed Nov 06, 2002, 04:54pm
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Maybe I should rephrase the question to, should I have told him I saw it as a shooting foul and let him decide if he wants to change it, or was I proper in saying, "I'm not going to change your call?"
When he called the foul, he did not indicate shooting foul or otherwise.
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My Greatest Call? I Trusted Christ!
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Wed Nov 06, 2002, 04:56pm
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My thoughts...assuming a single whistle here....
If your P called on the flo and before reporting asks for help, tell him what you saw but it's ultimately still his call to live or die with or without your info. I'd say if your P called on the flo and then under pressure asks for help and changes the call to shooting, you both better be over there explaining why he is changing the call to both coaches. That ought to be fun and I am sure learning will occur from this situation. If your partner doesnt come for help and lives with his call....and then you get it from A's coach for not helping, you can say "Coach the call was not in my primary" or "Coach, my P saw it that way so please check in with him, he may have saw it differently". In a Double whistle sitch you should get together and decide on the floor or shooting with the official in the primary taking the call. Old guys....anything more here?
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Wed Nov 06, 2002, 05:36pm
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PublicBJ-
In pregame it should be discussed what you are going to do on a foul that may appear to be a shooting foul or not. I will say most of the time that happens in the games that I am calling with my partners......But, I will not say that I have never had a memory lapse(senior moment) that I did not communicate well with my partner. But to answer the original question....I agree you should never overrule your partner....If he/she asks for help, tell them what you saw. The way I deal with a coach who asked me about my partners call....I am still polishing up this part of my game management skills, But I will never say something that the coach can use to drive a wedge between my partner and I. AK ref SE
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Wed Nov 06, 2002, 06:21pm
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Coach I was concentrating on my PCA and did not get a good look at the play--he did. My question as mentioned earlier is "why didn't you indicate the throw-in spot or indicate it was a shooting foul"..this of course to be done after the game....my guess is he wasn't sure himself.
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Trust me coach !!!
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Wed Nov 06, 2002, 08:39pm
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Quote:
I think you did fine. However, for me, I just ask ,"Was it shooting?", if, in my opinion, it was. When we work with a partner with the "preferred" slow whistle, the contact that we see may have been the "second touch" with the first touch occuring a step before our sighting. There is a decent discussion below on "over-ruling" a partner. Mileage may vary.  mick
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Wed Nov 06, 2002, 09:53pm
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Rev, your partner came to you because he needed help on the play. His question was "What did you see?" By saying "I'm not gonna change your call" doesn't really answer that question in my opinion. I would of simply answered either "I'm have him in the act of shooting" or "I have it on the floor". If your partner doesn't need help and doesn't come to you then it is a different story. Then you want to come to him only if you are 100% that he had it wrong and you feel like it will help the game. Then you might come to him and say "Jim, I am 100% that he was in the act of shooting". From there it is up to him, he can change it or not. I have been taught that when a partner comes to you that you always take his advice. Well, maybe I shouldn't say always, I guess there could be a situation where you wouldn't but every time someone has come to me with info I have taken it and changed my call. Be careful about lining up players withour knowing for sure what your partner has. Because you can make your partner look really bad especially when he has it on the floor. When coaches see you line them up and the players ready to shoot free throws now he has it in his mind that it must of been shooting.
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eli roe
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Wed Nov 06, 2002, 10:00pm
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Quote:
information on a *foul* call? OOB, misapplication of rules, that sort of thing, sure. But shooting vs nonshooting? I don't know about that.
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9-11-01 http://www.fallenheroesfund.org/fallenheroes/index.php http://www.carydufour.com/marinemoms...llowribbon.jpg
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Thu Nov 07, 2002, 08:05am
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As has been noted, this should be a topic in pregame (e.g. "When I make a call, I will give a prelim and point to the spot or indicate number of shots...if we're shooting, I will find your shooter for you").
I agree with Dan...there should be no debate on shooting fouls. The only time I will interject myself on my partner is on an incorrect OOB, shot or game clock situation or a rules interpretation. These situations require that I have certain knowledge that he/she does not, and we will pregame those situations as well.
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Thu Nov 07, 2002, 09:12am
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on the floor?
What is this "on the floor" stuff?
We all know that the act of shooting can start and even end with the player never leaving the floor. Look at how most players shoot free throws: they don't jump! My point is that I cringe when I hear an official indicate that it is not a shooting foul by yelling, "ON THE FLOOR!" I would suggest saying "No Shot." or "Before the shot." That is my mechanic. Yes, I know that is what we all mean, but the choice of words is terrible.
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