Can I give my partner a T??? (long)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

Agree in principle but I think his credibility with the coach was gone as soon as he yelled at him.

Doesn't matter. Now he's got added ammo to take to the assigner/supervisor. "Even the other official said he understood my frustration." Your job, as his partner, is to help him maintain some credibility.

Might not be fair, but it is what it is. There's a huge possibility that your game would have gone into the tank the 2nd half after the coach realizes you don't trust your partner.

"Robby, you said you were going to deal with him at half time!"

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Correct, to a point. I don't know what things are like in your little section of Rome, but here, in my little corner of Connecticut, most middle school games get rookie officials (granted, not usually for championship games).

Around here, rookie officials have passed both a written rules test, and a mechanics floor exam. Passed, not necessarily with an A+. Also, by the first week of February, some of our rookie officials, depending on their weekday afternoon availability, may have had only a few games, if any, under their belts.

Yes, a middle school coach should expect a rookie official to visually count ten seconds, but just because they should know it, doesn't mean that they're going to do it. They've got to learn somewhere. Rookies sure as hell aren't going to learn their trade working high school varsity games. So where else to better "screw up" than in a middle school game, "competitive", "varsity", or otherwise.

Billy,
In Central Ohio, the Catholic League MS games are almost ALL done by HS varsity officials that also do Catholic League HS games. The "rookies" are assigned 4th - 6th grade games -- frequently with varsity HS partners.

In the largest MS conference in town, MOST of the games are done by Varsity HS officials. Once again, MOST of the "rookies" do the 4th - 6th grade recreational league games.

JR, while I agree that coaches should indeed be showing good sportsmanship, in our MS leagues, we expect the officials to have some idea as to what they are doing. Getting STUPID AND LOUD is going to cause many a MS coach to react in a frustrated manner.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Doesn't matter. Now he's got added ammo to take to the assigner/supervisor. "Even the other official said he understood my frustration." Your job, as his partner, is to help him maintain some credibility.

Might not be fair, but it is what it is. There's a huge possibility that your game would have gone into the tank the 2nd half after the coach realizes you don't trust your partner.

"Robby, you said you were going to deal with him at half time!"

Snaqs,
In MOST cases, an official may be able to provide "cover" for his/her partner. At the same time, in this instance, I don't think it would have made a damn bit of difference what Robby would have said.

While most coaches don't know many of the nuances (back court rules, legal guarding position, etc.), MOST KNOW that counts are to be visible. Coaches sense a "rookie" from 84 feet away.

Until Mr. Hothead Harry learns to keep his emotions in check, his assigner should KNOW about his lack of mechanics knowledge and oncourt emotions. Officials expect coaches to "act the right way" (we don't say "hey, this guy is just 'learning', let's give him some leeway"). It is just as reasonable to expect the officials to do the same.

For the record, the Catholic League MS coaches are ALL volunteers. Many of the public school coaches are paid little. On the other hand, the officials get paid $30 - $40 for doing these MS games. Once again, a basic rules and mechanics knowledge is expected.

[RobbyinTN]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Doesn't matter. Now he's got added ammo to take to the assigner/supervisor. "Even the other official said he understood my frustration." Your job, as his partner, is to help him maintain some credibility.

Might not be fair, but it is what it is. There's a huge possibility that your game would have gone into the tank the 2nd half after the coach realizes you don't trust your partner.

"Robby, you said you were going to deal with him at half time!"

First off, I am not going to defend this partner to our assigner/supervisor. IMHO, he has no business on the floor until his anger problem is resolved. Granted that isn't my call; however, if asked I would recommend that he not be assigned to any games.

While my OP was long, it only told part of the story. When I made the statement about "I understand your frustration" it was after he kept telling me that he only asked a question and my partner yelled at him. He told me that he only asked a question and my partner started raising his voice. At that point in time, saving my partner was way out of my hands - and to be honest with you was low on my priority list. I was extremely pissed at my partner - I wanted to jump all over him for yelling at a coach but I refrained because I did not want to make him look any worse than he already did. This is one of those HTBT moments and having never run into this situation in 20 years of officiating, I wasn't exactly prepared for this. I have had to cover partners who made bad calls, etc but have never had to try to control a "verbal fight" between a coach and an official. They don't teach us that in camp.

It is easy to sit back in my chair tonight and say I should have done this or should have done that but I am going to tell you that when it happens in real time (and you're shocked by your partner's behavior), it doesn't always come out the way it should.

I know one thing - I will never call another game with him. He is on my unofficial blocked officials list with my assigner.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

I know that many officials on this board feel that a technical foul is warranted in this case -- regardless how wrong officials are. BUT, officials need to understand that coaches work very hard all week long to their teams ready to play. Middle school coaches still have the right to expect an official will know how to be an OFFICIAL.

As officials, we are REQUIRED to use a visible count. To not use one -- and then ARGUE in an offensive tone -- is going to allow the coach a leash usually reserved for one running with a dog in a large field!

Get your partner away from the coach as quickly and as far as you can.

Do not give me that crap about how hard you worked at the MS level. If you want to get further respect, then stop coaching middle school. Because the absolute newest or not so good officials are the ones that work those games mostly. You get what you pay for and sometimes what you ask for.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Getting STUPID AND LOUD is going to cause many a MS coach to react in a frustrated manner.

Got it. Getting STUPID and LOUD is OK for MS coaches.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Doesn't matter. Now he's got added ammo to take to the assigner/supervisor. "Even the other official said he understood my frustration." Your job, as his partner, is to help him maintain some credibility.

Might not be fair, but it is what it is. There's a huge possibility that your game would have gone into the tank the 2nd half after the coach realizes you don't trust your partner.

"Robby, you said you were going to deal with him at half time!"

+1

It seems that more concern was shown towards the coach's feelings than a very obviously inexperienced first year official. A very obviously inexperienced official that in all liklihood ain't gonna be around for a second year now either.

[RobbyinTN]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

+1

It seems that more concern was shown towards the coach's feelings than a very obviously inexperienced first year official. A very obviously inexperienced official that in all liklihood ain't gonna be around for a second year now either.

And I am okay with that - but he won't be around because I threw him under the bus, he won't be around because he can't handle his anger. THere is no way in the world am I taking the blame for it - we don't need officials like him on the court. Had it been rookie mistakes it would be different but this was unexcusable. If he never calls another game I am fine with that.

You can make me out the bad guy all you won't (not sure what your issue is with me but .................) but I refuse to take up for an official who acts like that. If all he had done was failed to do the count I would have gladly defended him; however, when he starts verbally attacking the coach, he is on his own. At that point in time all I am going to do is try to get the situation underhand before it escalates further.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

And I am okay with that - but he won't be around because I threw him under the bus, he won't be around because he can't handle his anger. THere is no way in the world am I taking the blame for it - we don't need officials like him on the court. Had it been rookie mistakes it would be different but this was unexcusable. If he never calls another game I am fine with that.

You can make me out the bad guy all you won't (not sure what your issue is with me but .................) but I refuse to take up for an official who acts like that. If all he had done was failed to do the count I would have gladly defended him; however, when he starts verbally attacking the coach, he is on his own. At that point in time all I am going to do is try to get the situation underhand before it escalates further.

I'm not saying you should have backed him up at all. You should have taken him to task in the locker room. But on the court, you should not have told the coach that you understood his frustration and that you'd take care of it at half time.

And if you're going to judge whether a 1st year official should continue based on his demeanor when he's getting run over by a coach and absolutely no support from his experience partner who likes to brag about how he mentors officials in middle school games, then keep on keeping on and watch your attrition rates rise.

I don't think you're a "bad guy." I just think you reacted poorly to an emotional situation. Your conversation with the coach was way too long, IMO.

[RobbyinTN]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not saying you should have backed him up at all. You should have taken him to task in the locker room. But on the court, you should not have told the coach that you understood his frustration and that you'd take care of it at half time.

And if you're going to judge whether a 1st year official should continue based on his demeanor when he's getting run over by a coach and absolutely no support from his experience partner who likes to brag about how he mentors officials in middle school games, then keep on keeping on and watch your attrition rates rise.

I don't think you're a "bad guy." I just think you reacted poorly to an emotional situation. Your conversation with the coach was way too long, IMO.

The reason I don't support this first year official is because the official wasn't being run over by the coach until hestarted raising his voice. The HC asked, in a mild manner, about the 10 second count. If my partner would have said something like "well coach I had it in my head but I'll try to make it visual from now on" I believe there would have been no problem. Instead he immediately got defensive and said "I have it in my head - that should be good enough for you, you take care of your players and I will take care of calling the game". The confrontation wasn't due to the HC asking the question but the official yelling at the coach. Had the HC jumped all over him first I would have stepped in and issued a T without hesitation; however, but that isn't how it came down. Maybe I did take too long with the coach but I couldn't get my partner to shut up long enough for us to get away from the table. I asked them both to calm down and let's get to our locker rooms but my partner was going to get in the last word if it took all of half time. The only way I could get them seperated was to warn the coach that further confrontation from him was going to result in a T - he finally walked away - and my partner was still raising his voice at him as he walked off.

Maybe I am being too hard on him but when this is going on at the scorer's table with fans behind watching it unfold it is just a little much. I think folks expect coaches to be emotional but not officials. And the thing that really got under my skin is was that in the locker room he told me he had been a coach for 20 years and he was not going to let a coach question his calls. I told him that he better get use to it because I have never called a game where a coach didn't question something - it is partof the game. He said "well I will give them a T then". Sorry, but I think if he wants to officiate he needs to go to wreck ball where that kind of behavior from a official might be more acceptable.

I love to mentor young officials but we all know that not everyone who wants to be an official needs to be one. Maybe this guy has hope but I can guarantee you that had a supervisor been there during this altercation, I would have probably been calling the rest of the game by myself. I seriously doubt he would have been able to return to the game after half time.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not saying you should have backed him up at all. You should have taken him to task in the locker room. But on the court, you should not have told the coach that you understood his frustration and that you'd take care of it at half time.

And if you're going to judge whether a 1st year official should continue based on his demeanor when he's getting run over by a coach and absolutely no support from his experience partner who likes to brag about how he mentors officials in middle school games, then keep on keeping on and watch your attrition rates rise.

I don't think you're a "bad guy." I just think you reacted poorly to an emotional situation. Your conversation with the coach was way too long, IMO.

At what point was the official being "run over" by the coach? Based on robby's accounting of the scenario I don't see that.

[rockyroad]

So, Robby, in your book this guy is all done. Washed up. Game over. Put him away. Screw him. Etc., etc...

Nothing like taking the easy way out.

Of course, following up with this horrible partner would just be too much to ask of any sane, decent, outstanding official like yourself. Got any idea what was going on with the guy? Had he just been told his wife was diagnosed with cancer? Maybe his oldest son was in a car accident that afternoon? Did you even bother to freaking ask him??

Nope - you're just done with him and will do whatever it takes to make sure he doesn't ever work with you again. And probably tell all your friends to do the same.

Yes sir...that's the best way to handle this whole mess. Screw him - he "deserves it".

[RobbyinTN]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

So, Robby, in your book this guy is all done. Washed up. Game over. Put him away. Screw him. Etc., etc...

Nothing like taking the easy way out.

Of course, following up with this horrible partner would just be too much to ask of any sane, decent, outstanding official like yourself. Got any idea what was going on with the guy? Had he just been told his wife was diagnosed with cancer? Maybe his oldest son was in a car accident that afternoon? Did you even bother to freaking ask him??

Nope - you're just done with him and will do whatever it takes to make sure he doesn't ever work with you again. And probably tell all your friends to do the same.

Yes sir...that's the best way to handle this whole mess. Screw him - he "deserves it".

It was very obvious by talking to him at half time and after the game that he had no intentions of changing and in a round about way he basically told me he didn't care to hear any constructive advice - that he knows the game and isn't going to take anything off anyone. He still thought he did nothing wrong and felt the coach had it coming. Does this sound like a guy who wants mentoring? Does this sound like a guy who is looking to improve or one who things that since he is wearing a stripped shirt that he can act however he wants on the floor?

Now if I see him at camp this year (which when I mentioned it to him, he told me he sees no need to go to BTW) and he is showing a desire to improve, I will be glad to work with him but based on his comments Saturday, I don't think that will happen.

There are too many good young upcoming officials who have a desire to be the best official they can be to worry about a middle aged, hot headed ,ex- coach who thinks he has the right to say whatever he wants to a coach and sees nothing wrong with it. I have seen some young officials come into the game with little experience, who make tons of mistakes but are willing to listen and imporve and turned into outstanding officials.

And if you are having a bad day, you don't take it out on the coaches. It is unacceptable for a coach to yell at an official and even more unacceptable for an official to yell at a coach. In 20 years of officiating I had never witnessed this type of behavior from an official until Saturday

Sorry, maybe I look like a bad guy but it is what it is.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

The reason I don't support this first year official is because the official wasn't being run over by the coach until hestarted raising his voice.

Just like first year officials need to learn mechanics, rules and judgment, they need to learn how to talk to coaches, and when to raise their voice (and when not to).

Just because he was wrong is no reason to throw him under the bus.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

It was very obvious by talking to him at half time and after the game that he had no intentions of changing and in a round about way he basically told me he didn't care to hear any constructive advice - that he knows the game and isn't going to take anything off anyone. He still thought he did nothing wrong and felt the coach had it coming. Does this sound like a guy who wants mentoring? Does this sound like a guy who is looking to improve or one who things that since he is wearing a stripped shirt that he can act however he wants on the floor?

Now if I see him at camp this year (which when I mentioned it to him, he told me he sees no need to go to BTW) and he is showing a desire to improve, I will be glad to work with him but based on his comments Saturday, I don't think that will happen.

There are too many good young upcoming officials who have a desire to be the best official they can be to worry about a middle aged, hot headed ,ex- coach who thinks he has the right to say whatever he wants to a coach and sees nothing wrong with it. I have seen some young officials come into the game with little experience, who make tons of mistakes but are willing to listen and imporve and turned into outstanding officials.

And if you are having a bad day, you don't take it out on the coaches. It is unacceptable for a coach to yell at an official and even more unacceptable for an official to yell at a coach. In 20 years of officiating I had never witnessed this type of behavior from an official until Saturday

Sorry, maybe I look like a bad guy but it is what it is.

Sorry, you were talking to him when emotions were still high. Like I said, unless you know more of the story, you don't really have a right to judge his ability as an official. One bad game doesn't make him a bad official.

Maybe:
1. He'd been taking sh1t all year and finally had enough. Yeah, the coach's comments were made cordially, from what you could hear, but I'm guessing you hadn't heard every comment the coach made to him all half.
2. Maybe his wife told him she wanted a divorce.
3. Maybe his dad was just diagnosed with xxxxx.

If he's adamant to you about it at half time, write him off for the game and GIGDGO, but don't throw him under the bus.

And if you do, don't go bragging on here about how great a mentor you are. Maybe you're not as cut out for it as you think you are.

Maybe you are, and this is just a bad game and we shouldn't write you off. But then again, that's my whole point, isn't it?