Can I give my partner a T??? (long)

[RobbyinTN]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not saying you should have backed him up at all. You should have taken him to task in the locker room. But on the court, you should not have told the coach that you understood his frustration and that you'd take care of it at half time.

And if you're going to judge whether a 1st year official should continue based on his demeanor when he's getting run over by a coach and absolutely no support from his experience partner who likes to brag about how he mentors officials in middle school games, then keep on keeping on and watch your attrition rates rise.

I don't think you're a "bad guy." I just think you reacted poorly to an emotional situation. Your conversation with the coach was way too long, IMO.

The reason I don't support this first year official is because the official wasn't being run over by the coach until hestarted raising his voice. The HC asked, in a mild manner, about the 10 second count. If my partner would have said something like "well coach I had it in my head but I'll try to make it visual from now on" I believe there would have been no problem. Instead he immediately got defensive and said "I have it in my head - that should be good enough for you, you take care of your players and I will take care of calling the game". The confrontation wasn't due to the HC asking the question but the official yelling at the coach. Had the HC jumped all over him first I would have stepped in and issued a T without hesitation; however, but that isn't how it came down. Maybe I did take too long with the coach but I couldn't get my partner to shut up long enough for us to get away from the table. I asked them both to calm down and let's get to our locker rooms but my partner was going to get in the last word if it took all of half time. The only way I could get them seperated was to warn the coach that further confrontation from him was going to result in a T - he finally walked away - and my partner was still raising his voice at him as he walked off.

Maybe I am being too hard on him but when this is going on at the scorer's table with fans behind watching it unfold it is just a little much. I think folks expect coaches to be emotional but not officials. And the thing that really got under my skin is was that in the locker room he told me he had been a coach for 20 years and he was not going to let a coach question his calls. I told him that he better get use to it because I have never called a game where a coach didn't question something - it is partof the game. He said "well I will give them a T then". Sorry, but I think if he wants to officiate he needs to go to wreck ball where that kind of behavior from a official might be more acceptable.

I love to mentor young officials but we all know that not everyone who wants to be an official needs to be one. Maybe this guy has hope but I can guarantee you that had a supervisor been there during this altercation, I would have probably been calling the rest of the game by myself. I seriously doubt he would have been able to return to the game after half time.

[rockyroad]

So, Robby, in your book this guy is all done. Washed up. Game over. Put him away. Screw him. Etc., etc...

Nothing like taking the easy way out.

Of course, following up with this horrible partner would just be too much to ask of any sane, decent, outstanding official like yourself. Got any idea what was going on with the guy? Had he just been told his wife was diagnosed with cancer? Maybe his oldest son was in a car accident that afternoon? Did you even bother to freaking ask him??

Nope - you're just done with him and will do whatever it takes to make sure he doesn't ever work with you again. And probably tell all your friends to do the same.

Yes sir...that's the best way to handle this whole mess. Screw him - he "deserves it".

[RobbyinTN]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

So, Robby, in your book this guy is all done. Washed up. Game over. Put him away. Screw him. Etc., etc...

Nothing like taking the easy way out.

Of course, following up with this horrible partner would just be too much to ask of any sane, decent, outstanding official like yourself. Got any idea what was going on with the guy? Had he just been told his wife was diagnosed with cancer? Maybe his oldest son was in a car accident that afternoon? Did you even bother to freaking ask him??

Nope - you're just done with him and will do whatever it takes to make sure he doesn't ever work with you again. And probably tell all your friends to do the same.

Yes sir...that's the best way to handle this whole mess. Screw him - he "deserves it".

It was very obvious by talking to him at half time and after the game that he had no intentions of changing and in a round about way he basically told me he didn't care to hear any constructive advice - that he knows the game and isn't going to take anything off anyone. He still thought he did nothing wrong and felt the coach had it coming. Does this sound like a guy who wants mentoring? Does this sound like a guy who is looking to improve or one who things that since he is wearing a stripped shirt that he can act however he wants on the floor?

Now if I see him at camp this year (which when I mentioned it to him, he told me he sees no need to go to BTW) and he is showing a desire to improve, I will be glad to work with him but based on his comments Saturday, I don't think that will happen.

There are too many good young upcoming officials who have a desire to be the best official they can be to worry about a middle aged, hot headed ,ex- coach who thinks he has the right to say whatever he wants to a coach and sees nothing wrong with it. I have seen some young officials come into the game with little experience, who make tons of mistakes but are willing to listen and imporve and turned into outstanding officials.

And if you are having a bad day, you don't take it out on the coaches. It is unacceptable for a coach to yell at an official and even more unacceptable for an official to yell at a coach. In 20 years of officiating I had never witnessed this type of behavior from an official until Saturday

Sorry, maybe I look like a bad guy but it is what it is.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

It was very obvious by talking to him at half time and after the game that he had no intentions of changing and in a round about way he basically told me he didn't care to hear any constructive advice - that he knows the game and isn't going to take anything off anyone. He still thought he did nothing wrong and felt the coach had it coming. Does this sound like a guy who wants mentoring? Does this sound like a guy who is looking to improve or one who things that since he is wearing a stripped shirt that he can act however he wants on the floor?

Now if I see him at camp this year (which when I mentioned it to him, he told me he sees no need to go to BTW) and he is showing a desire to improve, I will be glad to work with him but based on his comments Saturday, I don't think that will happen.

There are too many good young upcoming officials who have a desire to be the best official they can be to worry about a middle aged, hot headed ,ex- coach who thinks he has the right to say whatever he wants to a coach and sees nothing wrong with it. I have seen some young officials come into the game with little experience, who make tons of mistakes but are willing to listen and imporve and turned into outstanding officials.

And if you are having a bad day, you don't take it out on the coaches. It is unacceptable for a coach to yell at an official and even more unacceptable for an official to yell at a coach. In 20 years of officiating I had never witnessed this type of behavior from an official until Saturday

Sorry, maybe I look like a bad guy but it is what it is.

Sorry, you were talking to him when emotions were still high. Like I said, unless you know more of the story, you don't really have a right to judge his ability as an official. One bad game doesn't make him a bad official.

Maybe:
1. He'd been taking sh1t all year and finally had enough. Yeah, the coach's comments were made cordially, from what you could hear, but I'm guessing you hadn't heard every comment the coach made to him all half.
2. Maybe his wife told him she wanted a divorce.
3. Maybe his dad was just diagnosed with xxxxx.

If he's adamant to you about it at half time, write him off for the game and GIGDGO, but don't throw him under the bus.

And if you do, don't go bragging on here about how great a mentor you are. Maybe you're not as cut out for it as you think you are.

Maybe you are, and this is just a bad game and we shouldn't write you off. But then again, that's my whole point, isn't it?

[RobbyinTN]

First I don't recall "bragging" about mentoring. I have said, just like others here, that I enjoy helping young officials. The difference in this guy and EVERY other new official I have worked with is that he acted as if he was the veteran with nothing to learn and nothing that needed changing. I have been doing this 20 years and still realize I can learn and improve.

BTW my assigner called me today about him. Seems the game administrator witnessed the confrontation and was not happy with neither the coach or my partner and called the assigner. The assignedr said this was not the first complaint he had received about the guy this year and would be reviewing whether he uses him in the future. He said the only reason he got the game Saturday was he was the only one close and available with such short notice

He also got onto me for not issuing the coach a T. I told him under the circumstances I felt it would have made the sitaution worse. He said he would have HTBT to know for sure but felt he would have issued one.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

He also got onto me for not issuing the coach a T. I told him under the circumstances I felt it would have made the sitaution worse. He said he would have HTBT to know for sure but felt he would have issued one.

I've said this before and I'll say it again; whether a T would make a situation better or worse shouldn't come into consideration.

Simple: Did the coach earn it or not?

95 times out of 100, it will make the situation better if it was an earned T. It doesn't mean the T shouldn't have been given the other 5, though. And just because the situation got better on its own does not mean the right decision was made by not giving a T, either.

As for whether you were "bragging," that's for you to decide; but you've mentioned it multiple times along with how long you've been working. I've got nothing against that per se, and just because it didn't work with this guy doesn't mean anything.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

The reason I don't support this first year official is because the official wasn't being run over by the coach until hestarted raising his voice.

Just like first year officials need to learn mechanics, rules and judgment, they need to learn how to talk to coaches, and when to raise their voice (and when not to).

Just because he was wrong is no reason to throw him under the bus.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Just like first year officials need to learn mechanics, rules and judgment, they need to learn how to talk to coaches, and when to raise their voice (and when not to).

Just because he was wrong is no reason to throw him under the bus.

And it's up to us to try and teach the inexperienced officials if we want to keep them around. They will make mistakes; that's part of their learning process. Every one of us went through that back in the day. But it's a little much imo when you get it from both sides publically when you make a mistake. It changes a learning experience into a confrontation where the new official has no one in his corner trying to help him out.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

The reason I don't support this first year official is because the official wasn't being run over by the coach until hestarted raising his voice. The HC asked, in a mild manner, about the 10 second count. If my partner would have said something like "well coach I had it in my head but I'll try to make it visual from now on" I believe there would have been no problem. Instead he immediately got defensive and said "I have it in my head - that should be good enough for you, you take care of your players and I will take care of calling the game". The confrontation wasn't due to the HC asking the question but the official yelling at the coach. Had the HC jumped all over him first I would have stepped in and issued a T without hesitation; however, but that isn't how it came down. Maybe I did take too long with the coach but I couldn't get my partner to shut up long enough for us to get away from the table. I asked them both to calm down and let's get to our locker rooms but my partner was going to get in the last word if it took all of half time. The only way I could get them seperated was to warn the coach that further confrontation from him was going to result in a T - he finally walked away - and my partner was still raising his voice at him as he walked off.

Maybe I am being too hard on him but when this is going on at the scorer's table with fans behind watching it unfold it is just a little much. I think folks expect coaches to be emotional but not officials. And the thing that really got under my skin is was that in the locker room he told me he had been a coach for 20 years and he was not going to let a coach question his calls. I told him that he better get use to it because I have never called a game where a coach didn't question something - it is partof the game. He said "well I will give them a T then". Sorry, but I think if he wants to officiate he needs to go to wreck ball where that kind of behavior from a official might be more acceptable.

I love to mentor young officials but we all know that not everyone who wants to be an official needs to be one. Maybe this guy has hope but I can guarantee you that had a supervisor been there during this altercation, I would have probably been calling the rest of the game by myself. I seriously doubt he would have been able to return to the game after half time.

Did you hear the entire exchange, everything the coach said? All game long?

Also, if you find out this behavior is S.O.P. for this young official, then I'd agree with you.

[RobbyinTN]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Did you hear the entire exchange, everything the coach said? All game long?

I only heard the exchange at the table, I did not hear anything the coach said to him prior to that. I don't know if there were comments or not - I know I didn't hear a peep out of the coach directed at me during the first two periods.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

I only heard the exchange at the table, I did not hear anything the coach said to him prior to that. I don't know if there were comments or not - I know I didn't hear a peep out of the coach directed at me during the first two periods.

And you wouldn't have. I'm not saying it happened, I obviously don't know. But there have been lots of cases where the coach will work one official where the others can't hear it.

As has been pointed out, this guy needs to be trained on how to deal with coaches. If it's been tried already, then perhaps he does need to be discarded. But there are ramifications far beyond this one official for throwing a partner under the bus.

Guess what this coach is going to do the next time he senses a less experienced official working with a seasoned mentor.

[RobbyinTN]

I guess I don't see where "I understand your frustration, let me handle this" is throwing my partner under the bus. He kept asking me "do you understand why I am upset?" Not in a loud tone or demanding tone but obviously a frustrated tone

Had I said "you know coach you are right, you deserve better officiating than you are getting from this guy but he is a rookie so cut him some slack and he is an idiot for yelling at you, so I will make sure he never officiates again" - that would be throwing him under the bus.

Obviously most here think that makes me a bad guy but so be it