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Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 11:09am
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Red face

Just a question on philosophies here:

Player A1 is shooting a jump shot going "east to west". Player B1 is coming "north to south". Player A1 has released the ball while B1 is in the air. After the release, A1 and B1 slap hands before they both land. The shot is not affected as it has already been released.
Foul or no call?
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Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 11:21am
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I'd probably call the foul on this one. Since A1 is in the air, it doesn't take much contact to knock him off balance and possibly cause an awkward landing that could lead to injury. I also lean toward protecting shooters.
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Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 11:27am
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Quote:
Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m
Just a question on philosophies here:

Player A1 is shooting a jump shot going "east to west". Player B1 is coming "north to south". Player A1 has released the ball while B1 is in the air. After the release, A1 and B1 slap hands before they both land. The shot is not affected as it has already been released.
Foul or no call?
In your play it sounds like A1 is jumping into B1, who does
not maintain verticality (going north-south?). If I
understand what you're saying then B1 is responsible for
contact. Since the shot is already released the hand
contact usually can be ignored. If B1 would have undercut
A1 as he's in the air we have something different.

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Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 11:36am
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Let me try to explain it this way:
A1 was shooting a baseline jump shot. (east/west)
B1 was coming from the elbow down to block the shot (n/s)
Ball was released and then A1 and B1' hands smacked. Could not tell who smacked who. Crowd and coach went nuts and wanted a fould (there was a slapping sound) I let it go. There was no harm, it was not really clear who initiated the hand to hand contact, and I have been taught to call what I see, not what I hear. Unfortunately, the shot missed and I became a crowd favorite!
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Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 11:41am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy
I'd probably call the foul on this one. Since A1 is in the air, it doesn't take much contact to knock him off balance and possibly cause an awkward landing that could lead to injury. I also lean toward protecting shooters.
If you think the contact knocked the shooter off balance or caused an awkward landing,you should call the foul.If you think otherwise,you have a no-call,You just wait and see the whole play,and then make up YOUR mind.
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Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 11:44am
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JR,
That is what I did. I held my whistle (learned that at Camp, a $235 well spent!) watched the play. There was nothing awkward about the landing, the follow through, or the arc of the shot, just the slapping of hands. I looked for any of these and determined there was nothing to justify a whistle, and off I went! My only lingering doubt was the mantra "Call the obvious". There was obviously a slap, but I was not sure who initiated. Therefore, should I have been in a better position to observe or is there another key I should look for to determine advantage/disadvantage.
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Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 11:50am
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Quote:
Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m
Let me try to explain it this way:
A1 was shooting a baseline jump shot. (east/west)
B1 was coming from the elbow down to block the shot (n/s)
Ball was released and then A1 and B1' hands smacked. Could not tell who smacked who. Crowd and coach went nuts and wanted a fould (there was a slapping sound) I let it go. There was no harm, it was not really clear who initiated the hand to hand contact, and I have been taught to call what I see, not what I hear. Unfortunately, the shot missed and I became a crowd favorite!
Oh, I imagined B1 being in much more control than what I
read here. B1 came a long way and I imagine he had a
lot of momentum when the hands tangled. Good policy to not
whistle on the sound of the slap, ya done good. I don't
know, this is a tough one, I might have had somethng if
there was a big swat by B1 or something more than just hand
contact, or if I wanted to send a message to clean things
up, but since it sounds like there wasn't, good no call.
Sometimes ya gotta suck on your whistle and take the heat
for it afterwards. How old/what level we talking about?
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Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 11:56am
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JV girls. THis is my first season of Girls. I did the winter season last year which was my first. The coach was a habitual whiner, so I wasn't worried about that. (Plus there was a 10 - 3 foul spread in her advantage.)
Thanks for the affirmation of the good no - call!
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Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 12:29pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m
There was nothing awkward about the landing, the follow through, or the arc of the shot, just the slapping of hands. I looked for any of these and determined there was nothing to justify a whistle, and off I went!
That pretty well says it all.Certainly sounds like a good no-call(incidental contact).Never second-guess yourself on these--and don't worry about the people that will second-guess you.
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Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 12:58pm
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Sounds like a solid no call to me. Just make sure that the shooters get up and down ok and it probably (in cases like this) is nothing.
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Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 01:19pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Andy
I'd probably call the foul on this one. Since A1 is in the air, it doesn't take much contact to knock him off balance and possibly cause an awkward landing that could lead to injury. I also lean toward protecting shooters.
If you think the contact knocked the shooter off balance or caused an awkward landing,you should call the foul.If you think otherwise,you have a no-call,You just wait and see the whole play,and then make up YOUR mind.
Let me see if I can clarify my position. Fletch originally asked for philosophies on this type of play. Here's mine:

I would probably call this foul to send the message that I am watching the shooters throughout the entire time of the shot and do not want defensive players "jumping at" the shooter trying to block shots. In this case there was only hand to hand contact that did not affect the shooter landing or the shot since it was already away. Next time, however, the defense may be more aggressive since the foul was not called and more contact may happen.

Fletch also mentioned "call the obvious". I would say that statement is incorporated in my philosphy as well. That would be applicable if I knew for sure that it was B1 that initiated contact on A1 as they passed. Fletch did say that he could not tell who slapped who in this particular play, so that takes the "obvious" part out of this equation.

I can certainly see a justification for a no-call on this play, and I may choose to go that route if this play happened in a game I'm working. I'm just saying that my "philosophy" would lean toward calling a foul in this or a similar situation.
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Old Fri Nov 01, 2002, 02:44pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m
There was no harm, it was not really clear who initiated the hand to hand contact, and I have been taught to call what I see, not what I hear.
I think this answers your own question.

If I don't know who contacted whom, I'm not calling anything.

Just remember the physical laws of momentum - if B1 hits A1 hard enough, A1 will move down, and B1 will move back. Enough contact, and you'll see it.
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Old Sat Nov 02, 2002, 11:43am
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It sounds like a good no-call, but there is another aspect to consider, which no one else has mentioned. If A1 saw B1 coming, she may have adjusted her shot expecting contact, or rushing to avoid the defender stopping the shot. This is an advantage for B. If there is then contact, the B player has gained an advantage illegally and a foul should be called.

It may not have been like this in your case, but I've seen games where the player in A's position, was completely thrown off her rhythm by the defender coming at her. If there is no contact, this is just good defense, but if any contact occurs, I think this is a foul. Especially at the JV girls level, where skills are not as developed and players are not as experineced as they might be, I don't like to let this go.
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