Easier for us to see...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

How about 4-18?

I'm penalizing a landed punch with a flagrant personal foul because of the contact. Although the contact was preceded by the "attempt" referred to in 4-18-1, I'm not penalizing that separately.

That's similar to the idea that contacting the ball while it's still in the thrower's hands is a T, despite being preceded by a throwing-plane violation.

Any flagrant fouls after the first one will be T's because the ball is dead.

4-18-1 goes on to use the phrase ''regardless of whether contact is made."
I have heard it stated that a fight starts with either the beginning of the first punch or the act which provoked it. Either way, the ball is dead at this point, so the sequence afterward is irrelevant. I subscribe to this theory.

[just another ref]

Okay, I see your point. It takes two to make a fight. But if only one punches, and the other

a. runs away
b. takes it without a response
c. falls to the floor

only one is penalized.

But even in this case, can fighting be a personal foul? A single punch, perhaps.
Anything beyond that, the penalty encompasses the entire action, part of which happens after the ball is dead, making it a T. Yes?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Okay, I see your point. It takes two to make a fight. But if only one punches, and the other

a. runs away
b. takes it without a response
c. falls to the floor

only one is penalized.

But even in this case, can fighting be a personal foul? A single punch, perhaps.
Anything beyond that, the penalty encompasses the entire action, part of which happens after the ball is dead, making it a T. Yes?

You can also consider the person that "instigated" the fight as also part of the fight if they did not throw a single punch. In other words if the person says, "Your mom wears combat boots" and the opponent reacts and punches the person as a result, then you gets both of them. But that is not automatic at all or what the rule says.

And I am not under the impression that fighting is always a dead ball foul as it can take place during a live ball. That being said if that is the case I am sure this is in the definitions.

Peace