Kicked a Player Control Foul

[CDurham]

Had a play last night that I blew. A1 has the ball at the top of the key and I am in the Trail. B1 is applying heavy pressure on A1 and A1 begins to pivot to keep the ball safe. As he does he barely (and I mean barely) knicks B1 with the elbow in the face. I didn't see the contact as it again, barely caught B1. But it was enough to make B1 hold his eye and stop defensive pressure.

I don't know what the heck stopped me from having a whistle. I guess not seeing the contact I didn't feel right on having anything, but B1 was affected. I hate to go by the reaction of a defensive player but I believe B1 was contacted and enough to cause a disadvantage. I just hate I screwed this one up, especially after we had a good one on the other end (more contact involved however).

Any reactions?

[RobbyinTN]

You can't call what you don't see. You saw the reaction to the supposed contact - not the actual contact.

[tref]

Work harder to get open looks at plays...

Perhaps you can get a copy of the film? How was my position, where was my head & eyes looking & how can I referee this play better next time, can all be answered by doing honest self assessment through video review. JMO

[chartrusepengui]

And you've never seen a flop before? You didn't call what you didn't see. It was the correct call.

[tref]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

And you've never seen a flop before? You didn't call what you didn't see. It was the correct call.

Film work allows us to see why we didn't see it & doesnt let us lean on 'I didn't see it so I didn't call it." Incorrect no-calls are just as big as incorrect calls.

[CDurham]

Originally Posted by tref

Work harder to get open looks at plays...

Perhaps you can get a copy of the film? How was my position, where was my head & eyes looking & how can I referee this play better next time, can all be answered by doing honest self assessment through video review. JMO

It was just a weird situation. I was squared up to the play and looking in between the 2 players involved. But again either I zoned out and just missed it or it didn't occur. None the less there wasn't a big reaction from the coach, other than saying he was slightly cut.

In the end the offensive team didn't score on the play.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by tref

Film work allows us to see why we didn't see it & doesnt let us lean on 'I didn't see it so I didn't call it." Incorrect no-calls are just as big as incorrect calls.

And you still should not call what you did not see. Sometimes stuff happens we don't see. Should we just start guessing? Try to interpret reactions? Hmmm, I just saw a coach snap a look at me so I'll be he was getting personal about my last call and I'm guessing he called me an incompetent jerk so WHACK! ???

[tref]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

And you still should not call what you did not see. Sometimes stuff happens we don't see. Should we just start guessing? Try to interpret reactions? Hmmm, I just saw a coach snap a look at me so I'll be he was getting personal about my last call and I'm guessing he called me an incompetent jerk so WHACK! ???

Nah never said ANY of that...

Was just offering a solution to a problem as "tape dont lie."

Many times we say I didnt see it so I didnt call it, pack it up & head home never to think about it again. Personally, I want to see:
1. If I did really miss it
2. Why did I miss it
3. What can I do to not miss it next time

But hey, thats just me...

[chartrusepengui]

Ok, I "misinterpreted" your post!! I'll check the tape!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tref

Nah never said ANY of that...

Was just offering a solution to a problem as "tape dont lie."

Many times we say I didnt see it so I didnt call it, pack it up & head home never to think about it again. Personally, I want to see:
1. If I did really miss it
2. Why did I miss it
3. What can I do to not miss it next time

Sound advice imo.....fwiw.

You learn from the tape so that (hopefully) you won't miss a similar call in the future.

[Rich]

I know I'm bordering on heresy in this post, but it's possible to get this foul without actually seeing the elbow strike the head. Just as it's possible to get the trip without seeing the leg clip the other leg (or the heel).

I still work a lot of 2-person with gyms that have absolutely no room on the endlines. I do what I can to get open looks and I will move to wherever I need to move, and yet...I'll have a player drive and a defender coming from behind in my primary (as the lead) and the ball-handler goes down as if he's clearly been tripped from behind. Partner has no whistle cause he's across the court not looking at the ball and I'm screened even though I've moved to get as best an angle as possible.

So my choices are (1) let it go and deal with the aftermath or (2) put all the pieces of the puzzle and conclude that there had to be a foul. There are some kids who could possibly fake a foul, but when it happens very quickly with a very spontaneous reaction, the odds of it are almost zero.

At times I've chosen (1) -- where I simply can't be sure there's a foul -- and other times I've chosen (2) -- where it's obvious to me that a foul existed even though my eyeballs didn't quite see it. I will say that I've never had a player or coach complain when I've chosen (2) and I've had people say what a great "get" that was (and then I feel like a complete fraud, BTW).

I'm not fond of guessing (even an educated one) when I officiate. Not at all. But there are simply situations where 2-person officiating or the court or even a mistake on my part puts me out of position and sometimes I feel I gotta do what I gotta do. And I'll say that the number of times where I feel this way working 3-person is pretty darned near zero.

I'd never teach this, BTW. It'd be too easy for many people to misinterpret what I'm trying to say here and I'm certain a lot of people will here, anyway. But I figured I'd open it up for discussion.

In the OP's situation? The kid got hit in the head. Many times that happens so quickly that (1) you don't see it and (2) you don't react to it, regardless if you did see it. I've had players get poked in the eye and by the time I've pieced it together it's too late. Many times it's accidental and very quick/slight contact that just hit a very sensitive place on the player's body. Those get missed at every level and will continue to get missed no matter how hard you work at positioning -- and it sounds like the OP was happy with his positioning on the play. Getting the tape is still a great idea.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I know I'm bordering on heresy in this post, but it's possible to get this foul without actually seeing the elbow strike the head. Just as it's possible to get the trip without seeing the leg clip the other leg (or the heel).

I still work a lot of 2-person with gyms that have absolutely no room on the endlines. I do what I can to get open looks and I will move to wherever I need to move, and yet...I'll have a player drive and a defender coming from behind in my primary (as the lead) and the ball-handler goes down as if he's clearly been tripped from behind. Partner has no whistle cause he's across the court not looking at the ball and I'm screened even though I've moved to get as best an angle as possible.

So my choices are (1) let it go and deal with the aftermath or (2) put all the pieces of the puzzle and conclude that there had to be a foul. There are some kids who could possibly fake a foul, but when it happens very quickly with a very spontaneous reaction, the odds of it are almost zero.

At times I've chosen (1) -- where I simply can't be sure there's a foul -- and other times I've chosen (2) -- where it's obvious to me that a foul existed even though my eyeballs didn't quite see it. I will say that I've never had a player or coach complain when I've chosen (2) and I've had people say what a great "get" that was (and then I feel like a complete fraud, BTW).

I'm not fond of guessing (even an educated one) when I officiate. Not at all. But there are simply situations where 2-person officiating or the court or even a mistake on my part puts me out of position and sometimes I feel I gotta do what I gotta do. And I'll say that the number of times where I feel this way working 3-person is pretty darned near zero.

I'd never teach this, BTW. It'd be too easy for many people to misinterpret what I'm trying to say here and I'm certain a lot of people will here, anyway. But I figured I'd open it up for discussion.

In the OP's situation? The kid got hit in the head. Many times that happens so quickly that (1) you don't see it and (2) you don't react to it, regardless if you did see it. I've had players get poked in the eye and by the time I've pieced it together it's too late. Many times it's accidental and very quick/slight contact that just hit a very sensitive place on the player's body. Those get missed at every level and will continue to get missed no matter how hard you work at positioning -- and it sounds like the OP was happy with his positioning on the play. Getting the tape is still a great idea.

I agree. The hands are quicker than the eye, and it's almost impossible to tell whether a swipe near the face makes contact or not. If it's the same amount of contact on the arm, it probably doesn't matter -- it's not going to affect play. But, a relatively minor amount of contact on the face / nose / eye can become an advantage.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree. The hands are quicker than the eye, and it's almost impossible to tell whether a swipe near the face makes contact or not. If it's the same amount of contact on the arm, it probably doesn't matter -- it's not going to affect play. But, a relatively minor amount of contact on the face / nose / eye can become an advantage.

And to follow up with my previous heresy -- if I can piece it together in a timely manner, I'm whistling the foul.

[JRutledge]

Rich,

This is why it is called judgment. We are not going to see every little contact, but if we know the contact took place we have to decide if a foul was committed. It is really the case in basketball considering angles affect a lot of actions. But we can know there was contact on a play without actually seeing the contact in my opinion.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

And to follow up with my previous heresy -- if I can piece it together in a timely manner, I'm whistling the foul.

Agree.