I violated rule #1.....not THAT rule #1
 

Forgive me board for I have "sorta" sinned. It has been......lets just say a long time since my last confession...
Intersting game Saturday. I actaully verbally criticized an official from my Assistant Coach perch!! Here are the plays:
1. V1 strips the ball, as it rolls on the floor V1 tries to pick it up but it keeps rolling. TRAVEL. "You can't travel if you don't have possesion" Ofc1: "Once she touches it she has possesion."
2. H1 drives to the basket V1 guarding. H1 lowers shoulder and puts V1 into the wall. No call. "Why was there no call? She lowered her shoulder" Ofc2: "They were running side by side when the girl put her shoulder down so no call". ME: "You might want to check LGP in your rule book at half time"
3. H ball. Deflection. H1 takes 2 dribbles in front court, crosses line, and one dribble in back court before returning. No over and back. OFC1: " She didn't have possession" ME: "According to you she did. She "Touched" the ball in front court before going to the back court" Later, same play, but V1 takes one dribble then steps in back court. OFC3 makes the CORRECT call. Wife YELLS across court to first official "That is the same call YOU screwed up. Maybe you should take notes from this guy!" OFC: "I know the rules. I don't need any help" "You don't know s*$%!" with a nice foot stomp for good measure.She got the T!
4. While administering the T. I direct two of our players to stand on the 3 point line behind the shooter. OFC1 blows the whistle and tells our girls to get back behind the line. I tell them to stay exactly where they are and don't tmove (The girls LOVED that) After some back and forth OFC1 tells us we have to move the girls back. I ask him why? He says it is the rules and if we dont' he will eject the head coach. I stood up and asked him in an even voice. "Are you 100% sure you are right? Because if you toss her, you have to send in paperwork. How embarrassed are you going to be when you find out that you ejected a coach becasue YOU don't know the rules." OFC1 "I don't need a lecture on the rules from an Assistant Coach" ME: "Then you make the call, b/c our girls aint moving". OFC3 comes over and huddles them together. Our girls stay. And yes it had the desired affect of freezing their shooter as she proceeded to miss her second shot!

After the game OFC3 comes and apologizes to me about the rules that were kicked. I told him that is fine, at the end of the day you can only be responsible for the calls YOU make and he made the right call on the OandB as well as the T administration. It also helped that we won after being outshot on the FT line by 35. Leading a double life can be so confusing!

Maybe I shouldn't, but I absolutely love this sequence. Probably should have added a T for the mouthy assistant, but I still love it.

Your wife is lucky she didn't get whacked for this one.

Nah, she was shooting for the T here, or she wouldn't have followed it up like she did.

I know it, which is why the officials need to get the first one before she says something to get her tossed. :D

Which One of the Three Was I?
 

Oh, that's your wife. I didn't know that was your team last Saturday. Introduce yourself by your screen name next time.

How come all your comments came after calls/non-calls that went against your team? How come no plays where the Home team got screwed followed by you questioning their calls? Plus add on that you were an assistant coach and you shouldn't have been engaging the officials in any conversations nor should you have been standing up telling your player where to stand. (And don't give any cock-n-bull about sitting down during that sequence.) Your wife is the HC, why don't you let her fight her own battles?

IMO, the way you handled it you were just being a jerk. That's my take.

This one throws me a bit.

Just because the dribbler/shooter lowers a shoulder does not mean the defender has LGP. That has to be obtained and maintained. If they were indeed running side-by-side, it's kind of hard to obtain LGP.

Granted, you can still commit a player control foul without the defender having LGP (extended appendage), but I've yet to see "lowering the shoulder" in the rule book. I think this one is a matter of judgment.

I would have warned your wife about AC comments at step one and then wacked you on the next comment whether you were right about a rule or not!

Why did they have so much dialog with this guy? Maybe they thought he was the HC & she was the assistant...

Look up the part about maintaining it, not obtaining it.

Agree. That type of behavior isn't something to be proud of, no matter how bad the officials were. It's unprofessional as hell. If one of our guys does something like this while he's coaching, we tell him to pick an avocation because we ain't gonna let him ride our officials, especially as an assistant coach.

Fogive me if I am wrong, but shouldn't the players be behind the tree point line and not on it? I read a comment yesterday that if you are touching the three point line, you are considered inside the three point line.

Gotta agree with this...not sure how Judtech's actions made the situation any better. And if I'm on this game, no way an AC gets to take that many shots at my crew.

NFHS 4-23-3? I don't see "shoulder" anywhere. Or did you mean elsewhere?

8-1-5: must be behind the three-point line.

Which is why it's important to establish who the HC is and who the AC is. It only takes 2 seconds and 1 question.

Yup.....behind.....

None of that justifies your behavior. If he had stuck you, he would have definitely have gotten that call correct.

The competency of the officials is one matter. A lack of competency by the officials never excuses horsesh!t behavior like that though. Intimidating some very obviously inexperienced officials is hardly something to brag about imo, especially on an officials forum.

Yes, but that's what he meant.

TheRestOfTheStory
 

. . . and the free throw line extended.

Sorry for the obviousness of that. New guy I'm mentoring got the first part and forgot the second, banishing everyone above the top of the arc.

Or did I miss the point of the response?

Agreed...there is an established protocol (at least around here) for coaches to "complain" to the assignor about incompetent officials. It involves filling in a short form and send in a dvd of the game film...it certainly does not involve being an a$$ during the game, and involving your players in that a$$-ness.

HEy - I think I just made up a new word!:D

My point was running side-by-side doesn't make it any more difficult to maintain LGP, which was Judd's point.

The lowered shoulder will tell you who initiated contact, even if it's not always relevant.

You're an official, you should know better than to act like this, especially from the assistant seat. Officials make mistakes. Maybe these officials weren't ready for a varsity game? Either way, you understand how to approach them in an appropriate manner, yet you chose not to. You even mention that your players were getting a "kick" out of your unsporting behavior. That's a great life-lesson you're teaching those young people Coach.

Judtech, as others have already mentioned, for the most part your behavior was not appropriate. I certainly understand playing, coaching, and officiating sports can be emotional, but if you notice, the better officials tend to not let their emotions get the better of them during a game. That might be a skill you can hone during your time as the AC. Truthfully, as an official, have you ever changed a call due to comments made by an AC? Also, wouldn't the tone of the comments, or the wording, make you less likely to change a call? Maybe it feels good to say those things, but what else does it accomplish other than provide an adversarial relationship? Have you ever known comments said from the bench during a game to ever improve the competency level of the officials? All things considered, it would provide a better example to the team to be quiet in those instances.

With regard to how you handled the FT issue - you were correct in that your team was able to stand where they were, provided they were standing outside the arc, not on it. However, your interaction with the official probably would've carried more weight had you not made any of the previous, unnecessary comments. You could've also asked him to confer with his partners to make sure he was correct. But were you willing to follow through with having your head coach ejected? What would it REALLY accomplish? (Other than you now get to coach the rest of the game?...How would that fly later on that evening?) What example does that really give the kids? How would that differ from sending a tape to the assignor, while not saying anything during the game itself?

Now, maybe you realize this - thus your attendance in the Officials' Confessional. But the real test is whether you actually learn from your mistakes, or if you continue to make the same mistakes going forward. Being professional applies to both officials and coaches, but even more so to ones who happen to be both.

Officiating such as you have described was one of the main motivations that got me involved in officiating. I have been in games where the officiating was not up to snuff and I managed to restrain myself until I could get a private moment with the aberrant official after the game. I find your actions thoroughly detestable. Shame, Shame, Shame on you. You missed a chance to be a positive influence on that ref. I really question your character to have the chutzpah to come here bragging about berating and humiliating a fellow official. I am embarrassed by and for you. How would you explain this escapade to your association leadership?
'Nuff said

Had I been calling the game, your wife would have gotten the first T of the night and you would hav gotten the second. No way in the world I am going to put up with that kind of behavior from a HC, much less an assistant.

Bad enough that you did it; really bad that you "brag" about it and extremely bad since you are an official as well.

Ask yourself this question. How long would you have tolerated that behavior from an AC had you been officiating the game? You might not have missed those calls but you would have done something the coaches did not like.

Poor behavior IMHO - very poor.

How can you even obtain LGP when you're running side-by-side with an opponent? My point is, LGP shouldn't factor into this equation, so why mention it to the official?

Often true, but not always. There are those that say it's always a charge if the dribbler/shooter lowers his shoulder, but I've never found that in the rule book. I'd like to be pointed out that passage, if it exists.

This is kinda what I was thinking reading through the OP......

First of all, the shoulder thing is only a description of the play. The official's explanation, however, is that since she was running side-by-side there was no offensive foul.

As for LGP, he never says when she gained it. Assuming she had it before they started moving, which is a very likely scenario here, she does not lose it by merely running side by side with the offensive player.

My comments earlier notwithstanding, item #1 in the OP would have drawn a warning to the HC for me. I certainly wouldn't have answered the comment from the AC.
His final comment in #2 would have drawn a T from me.

I'm assuming all future discussions would have taken a different format after the T.

this is an interesting thread; thanks to all.

i have two questions: newer ref, 3rd year, mid-level rating in out pool.

first, regarding the dropped shoulder- some of our guys say its an automatic charge...some don't. i don't know what to do. i've only called it twice (dropped shoulder charge), neither time was the call in doubt. can any of you veterans expound on when this wouldn't be a charge?

secondly, i don't know how to handle the ***'t coaches. twice this year they have been yapping at me. do you guys even respond to them, or just tell the head coach to control his bench? a guy in our pool told me to never give a t to an ***'t coach...that it is always a t, indirect to the head coach, which counts towards ejection. any advice would be appreciated.

thank you.

Its not a p/c foul when contact is not made or when it doesnt put the defender at a disadvantage.

There sure are a lot of automatics, nevers & always...

Say the assistant coach calls you an a-hole, you hit the bench & indirect to the HC. He says it again, you could've ran him this time but you chose not to assess it to the AC.

If I have definite knowledge of the offender on the bench, I give it directly to them & indirectly to the coach.

Dropping the shoulder and charging into an opponent violates 10-6-1 as they are impeding the progress of an opponent by extending a shoulder and employing rough tactics. This rule does not say any thing about the opponent having to have LGP.

Asst coaches are bench personnel. If they commit an unsporting act, you charge the AC with a direct T and the HC gets an indirect T.

It sounds like you've been advised to T the HC instead of the AC under the theory he's responsible for the AC's conduct. Don't do this. The indirect T the coach gets already takes care of this.

The key is to officiate the defense. Dropping the shoulder takes away some of the doubt, but it's still not automatic. If the defender is coming at the ball handler, the ball handler is allowed to protect himself; and lowering his shoulder could be a means of bracing for contact.

Knowing whether the defender has LGP is the key here.

I'm not even sure what he means. You absolutely can give a T to the assistant coach, and it still gets applied to the HC indirectly.

A quick word to the HC will usually take care of it; "Coach, I'll answer questions if I have time, but your AC doesn't get the same privileges you do." That usually works, or you can be more direct with, "Coach, please take control of your bench."

First, I don't consider lowering the shoulder an "automatic" call, as there is no specific provision in the rules for such. Remember, you are still trying to determine who initiates contact, and whether such contact is illegal and puts the other player at a disadvantage. While it is probably a good indication that someone who lowers their shoulder might indeed be trying to push their way through, or clear out space, it is not an automatic. I've seen players lower their shoulder to protect from an onrushing defender, for example.

In your second question, I'm not quite following - are you saying you've been told not to give a T to an assistant coach, because it would also be an indirect to the HC? If so, that would be bad advice. That is exactly the reason you would inform the HC that they are indeed responsible for the behavior of their benches, and if the HC cannot control it, the HC will also be penalized with the indirect.

I guess I'm losing my speed typing skills.

So, what they said, above. :)

many, many thanks...

Wow. Just wow.
 

Where to start? I guess you are lucky you didn't have to listen to the rest of the game in your car. Were you hoping the official would see you officiate in a game sometime to see how it's done? Too bad Padgett didn't have your game. Your shoes wouldn't have been the only thing that got puked on, and deservedly so.

Sorry to say, but you were "that guy." You know, the coach that lets everyone know that he is an official (whether you did or not).

I'm certainly not perfect and I've worked with partners that make mistakes too, but had I known you were an official and you acted that way, you'd probably be checking which radio station was carrying the game so you could listen in the car.

In #1, why are you talking to the official? You're the assistant coach - keep your mouth shut.

#2 I'd whack you right there. I wouldn't have said what that official said, certainly, but that phrase from you would result in free throws being shot and your wife sitting down.

#3 - Whack if you hadn't had one. Ejection if you had.

#4 - You really have nerve as an assistant coach. Sounds like the officials aren't the only one who have learning to do. Sounds like you need to learn your role. Hint: It's a more silent one when it comes to the officials.

so, forgive my ignorance, but sometimes i have a hard time reading the legalese the way the rule book is written.

so, if the assistant coach gets a t, it is an indirect to the head coach.

we're shooting only two, though, right?

Correct. With the added penalty of the HC losing the coaching box priviledges.

You've got it. Any direct technical foul on bench personnel (you can read the definitions to determine who is bench personnel when) is also an indirect on the head coach.

There is never an indirect T without a direct T. And only the direct T is penalized in the form of free throws and possession. The only impact of an indirect T is that it ends the coach's coaching box privileges and counts as one of his three toward ejection.

There is a great summary of technical fouls following the rules section. I refer to it several times during the season. No shots for indirect...they are given because of someone else's infraction.

And to add incase some may not know, (not you jdw sure you do) the "t" on the assistant only counts as a foul towards the total team foul count. It sounds like two since its an indirect on the Head coach as well. For instance, if the black team had four team fouls and during a time out the asstant gets a "T" the team foul count would now say five team fouls. The head coach as has been already mentioned now has an indirect "t" and his happily sitting!

Why's is gotta be the "black" team? :D

Indirect Ts never count towards the foul count; they all have an accompanying direct. It's one foul, I'm not sure why people seem to think the indirect would count towards the team foul count.

Because "African American" has too many syllables.

This has been a common source of discussion almost annually at preseason meetings. Some have a hard time wrapping their minds around the indirect T. I always try to explain that the indirect isn't actually a foul. It's simply a way of tracking how many Ts have been called on bench personnel.

Once one grabs the concept that an indirect T never happens without an accompanying direct T, it seems to click.

Agreed, I explain this to people (3-4) every year. Some are even officials!:D

I'll try to incorporate that wording, thanks. It just doesn't seem that confusing, but I have little rules that I get hung up on that other people master with no problem. One I have to slowly go through is when the opponents make a basket in the wrong hoop.

First, let's get this out of the way. The guy in your pool is an idiot.

As for the asst. coach, unless everyone in the gym hears him being an a$$, I usually give the coach an opportunity to take care of his asst. If he doesn't, I'll take care of him the next time he opens his yap.

I've stuck one asst. this year. Two players were going for the ball and her girl went down hard. Contact was incidental, no foul. She jumped off the bench and yelled for a foul. Easy WHACK!

In any case, handle it. Do not let an asst. run his mouth at you.

I've only had to ring up one assistant. They're star player traveled right before making a transition shot. I called the travel, and they thought at first I was calling a foul. Both coaches stood up and yelled at me for calling the travel. Easy T. Things went much smoother after that.

I am going for the worlds longest post!
 

Good reply's one and all. I will do my best to hit as many themes as possible:
- Yes, I was being a dick in #3 and #4. I admit it. Let emotions get the better of me for awhile. I apologized to the other coach and the offical about it.
- In #2 the official was right there and the tone I used wasn't bad and the official didn't seem to take it in a bad way. He actually said "Ok" Should I have said it? No. I usually tell my wife to tell the official those things.
- The only time I raised my voice was in talking with my players. I was not ranting and raving up and down the sidelines. In the past I had a tendancy to stand up and call plays etc, but I have worked very hard on staying seated doing the same thing.
- For those asking what I would have done with an assistant coach in that situation that is an interesting question. For starters, I wouldn't have missed those plays. Secondly,I would only address the head coach. In #4 I was the one being directly addressed, probably b/c I was the one instructing them to get to the 3 pt line. If the comments were directed to the head coach, it takes the AC out of the loop. Finally, I would have whacked me in #4 and call the bluff, I would have asked the HC to take care of her bench after #3 and maybe #2. But again, if you don't engage an AC in a conversation, it takes care of a lot of this.
- What "example" was I setting for the officials and/or our players. This is a really great question and we can go on and on. As for the officials, they were certainly not newbies. Even though they were not from our association, unless they started VERY late in life, they had been around a long time, so this was not a case of me picking on some newbies. It also goes to show that coaches and assistant coaches will give you as much crap as you are willing to take. Also, knowing the rules helps. Simple rule knowledge would have difused the whole scenario. With regards to the players, I know what we teach, I would be more interested in hearing what "bad things" were supposedly taught. I do know that it further emphasizes that officials don't cost you a game. Your actions as a player determines the outcome of a game.

- RICH in #1, I didn't say anything. Most of the rest of what you said I agree with 100%. Yes I was "That" guy, however, I'm not sure if they knew I officiated or not. I WAS glad my wife didn't play the "My husband is an official" card. As someone said to me "You tried to show up an official with your superior rules knowledge". That made the point to me.
- SNAQ - Thanks for clarifiying the "On the 3 pt line" comment. Glad our players understood it! Like I said, I would have whacked the mouthy assistant too! And my wife was shooting for the T and she is a very good shot!
- Freddy - Which one do you THINK you were;)
- ROCKY I do believe you did make up a new word, and I like it! Not sure how the players were involved in it however. They weren't being asked to do anything illegal
- MandM - you make great points. I would disagree about the equivelancy of officials and coaches. When I am officiating I could not care less who wins. I have only a vested interest the crew and me doing our jobs. I am an unbiased participant. As a coach, I have a vested interest and a biased view. Block, charge, hold, push, hit, those are the jobs of the officials, and knowing that I am biased actually helps me keep my mouth shut. More often than not I find myself explaining to our players WHY it was a foul and what they need to do to avoid a foul in the future. At least for me the emotions I feel as an official and a coach are completely different. I have been leading this "double life" for about 7 years, and my bench decorum hasn't been an issue with the exception of the above mentioned standing to call plays.
- JUST Really? Questioning my character on just this post? Did you ever have an assistant coach say anything to an official? Did you also find them of poor character and aberrant? I did not come here to brag, just state what happened. Hopefully, the above clarified.
- JUR REF - We obviously don't see eye to eye on much, but I would be interested in the "What if.." What if you received a tape of the above rules being kicked, of the officials addressing the AC etc. What action would you take? How would you handle the officials? (For this question, the AC would NOT be an official) Not trying to be a smart ***, but I think it might be helfpul to others on the board how something like this would play out. There are those who fear "getting a tape sent in", especially when they kicked something, and having the curtain pulled back may put some at ease.

Hope that clarifies things. Thanks for all the responses, makes for good reading and serves as good "penance" to keep myself in check!! "Read The Official Forum and memorize the "Bench Personnel" section of the rule book and sin no more! If I didn't address something you think I should, just let me know!

If they're running side-by-side, the defender is no longer in the path of the opponent and has lost LGP if they ever had it.
Agree.

Disagree...LGP requires being in the path...running side-by-side is not in the path.

Sorry, Judtech. It's a waste of time trying to explain anything to you. You won't believe it anyway. You don't think like an official; you think like the worst example of a person trying to coach. You obviously don't think that you really did anything wrong and nothing any of us can say will change that. Good coaches know they will get weak officials now and then and they try to get through it. You and your wife? You try to intimidate weak officials to gain an unfair advantage. And then brag about it.

The problem is that you just ain't us. You may officiate but you aren't an official. That's my calm, cool and collected opinion of you...an opinion which I know you don't particulary care or worry about.

Carry on carrying on. But if you come here to brag about your carrying on, be prepared.

Jurrasic Ref - Sorry you feel that way. I think I clearly stated what I did wrong and apologized for it.
"The worst example of a person trying to coach" is a bit hyperbolic, and while petty and personal attacks are something you default to, in this case I take exception. You have no idea what we do in practice. While I am not proud about the way I acted the other nite, I am VERY proud with what we have accomplished in the lives of the girls we have been fortunate enough to coach. As I told the girls yesterday in practice "saturday was a great example of someone BEING right, but not acting right. There is an intrinsic value in knowing you are correct, and sometimes it is best to keep that satisfaction to yourself."

IMO, it would be a great opportunity for you to share how you handle coaches turning in video about officials. As I said, I am not trying to be a smart ***, but it is a call that a lot of officials dread "Just got film from your game at XXX, so what exactly happened". Since you are a supervisor, it might be helpful to others to know what process and steps are taking before making that call.

But you were spot on. I am not one of "US". I try not to look at the world as "US" vs "THEM". (In full disclosure I am not one of "THEM" either). I love the game of basketball. I loved playing it, I love watching it at every level, I love officiating it and I love coaching it. The game has given me a lot, a college scholarship, a pay check, see the world, meet my wife, learn about myself and positively affect those around me. I do not fit that neatly into a label. There are not very many officials who also coach. There are not many coaches who coach with their spouse. Not sure what "label" that fits me with, but Crazy and Certifiable are two that come to mind! Or to get "touchy feely" I am just me!

Great points! I would just like to add, when you're in the AC role play THAT role & nothing more as we all know the coach that "refs too." When you're in the referee role play THAT role & nothing more as we should not coach players.

Had a game earlier in the season with an official that used to coach & was also an AD. We had a tough game from a consistency stand point as he refereed through a coaches/AD view of the game :mad:

That is the best lesson for everyone to learn from this situation.

My comment about "involving the players in the a$$-ness" was directed at the whole "stand at the 3-point line"...you knew the officials were wrong, but you wanted to show them up. And to do so, you involved your players - they were told by one authority figure to do one thing, and then by another authority figure to do something contradictory. To me - as a teacher, father, coach, and official - that is deplorable. You "used" your players to prove a point. That violates the trust they - and their parents - place in you as a coach.

So I would hope that you not only made your point above about being right, but also apologized for putting them in a situation they should not have been in.

Off my soap box now.

Agree 100% it is a VERY difficult thing to do. 99 times out of 100 I just do my Jerry Tarkanian imitation and gnaw on a towel (even shared a few of those instances on the board) Screwed the pooch on this one.
You also bring up a GREAT point that I discussed with fellow referee's a few years ago. I don't know how long you have officiated, but for younger/newer officials it can be a bit intimidating to some to work a game where the AD and/or coach has officiating background. (which sounds like what you were experiencing) They may start second guessing what THEY are doing, and start to think about what the AD/Coach thinks. That is a recipe for failure. It would be akin to when I first started calling and my supervisor would be in the stands watching. Was I making/not making calls for the GAME or for THEM. After awhile, you don't even notice/care if they are there are not. A great take away from this experience for ME is to have that in the back of my mind for 30 year vets not just "newbies".

I respect that Judtech!!

Great soap box to be on. I see where you are coming from in your post now. If I may, I would LOVE to share an exchange our team had, I will try (and fail) to make it brief. We only have 3 rules on our team, one of which is "Control what you can control" During our practice meeting one of the players said "Yeah coach you violated Rule #2. Like you always say, you can't control what the official does, but you can control how you respond to it. SO since you broke a rule we have to bench you!" Then it occured to them that since I already am on the bench it wasn't that big a deal, so they thought I should run!!!:eek: I told them that since THEY followed rule #2 and I didn't I would give them a 5 Sprint credit they could use any time in practice!!! Kids, just when you think they don't pay attention!

I deliberately said it that way because the vast majority of coaches that I've met over the years would never dream of doing any of the despicable crap that you described...and gloated about...in your original post. Guilt by association with someone like you...and I hate to say it but your wife also because it seems she condones your actions.... would have just been wrong on my part.

You just don't get it, Judtech. I worry about my fellow officials...and the state of basketball. I worry about all of the players. I worry about the good coaches that we meet, the ones that care for the game and teaching life lessons. Do I care or worry about coaches like you? Never. You eventually reap what you sow, and now you're reaping it in this thread. And there's nothing personal about it either. It's an indictment of all the coaches that share your team-first no matter what mentality.

End of wasted sermon. Fell free to ignore. :)

How can you RESPECT this guy!

Jedtech...you have got to be joking.

There is no way anyone with a half a brain would post the bullsh**t you did and the way you acted.

Oh wait, you must have a half a brain to act that way when YOU ARE, SUPPOSEDLY, AN OFFICIAL!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

I quit reading your posts after the first few...and yes I am piling on.

I would do everything in my power, if you were in my association, to have you suspended.

There...I feel better now.

I respect his following statement. He acknowledges his mistake & aims to do better in the future. What more can he or any of us (who makes mistakes in life) do?

Judtech,

In your coaching position, I wouldn't support your questioning of judgement calls, or your methods in general. But I will agree that when a crew at the varsity level either sets aside a rule, or doesn't know a rule, that someone from the coaching staff ought to be able to make that known to them--and if it has to be an example, so-be-it.

In a state without assignors, how else are you going to make that point?

Absolutely! Just as long as that someone is THE HEAD COACH ;)

By following whatever protocol that state has set up to deal with complaints about officials? All states have them afaik.

I agree, but if the officials start addressing the AC, there's nothing wrong with him responding. Whether the AC can make these points is really up to the officials on the game, not the officials on the board.

Well, in at least one, he's money ahead to do what he did.

Would anyone respect any coach that came here and made a post like the OP, gloating about how they intimidated and showed up some obviously weak officials while gaining an unfair advantage like icing the shooter at the same time? Judtech was not posting as an official. He was posting as a coach, and as an assistant coach to boot. That he was also an official only compounds the problem imo. Officials should know better.

JMO

Good point! That's why I generally ask the HC, "I know he (AC) isnt speaking to me... IS HE?"
99% of the time I get, "Bobby I'll ask the questions around here!" :D

Isn't it easier in states without assigners? To make your point, have the AD scratch the official and never hire him, her or them again.

That's fine at home. There's always the road, and while it's not a coach's problem, the other hundreds of schools in the state where the crew may screw up the rule otherwise.

OK fair point on home vs. away but then how many officials are really going to be looking to take constructive criticism from a coach during a game? Does not seem to be very effective in my view.

Please. While it's no guarantee, I'd hope some of those crew members would go home and read their case book when he was adamant about where his players could stand on the technical free throws.

How many of them would if he never said a peep?

And how many more of them would if he approached it in a less confrontational manner?

Less

So you're saying people are more receptive to criticism when they are being put on the defensive than when they are not?

Interesting.

I think he's saying they're more likely to pay attention when they're forced to.

I'm saying they're much more apt to check their facts (in this case, the rule book) if someone else is adamant they are wrong, rather than being milquetoast about it. I'm sorry, but a weak-livered, "well, I don't know about that" probably won't engage any extra rule study.

Helps if the coach hasn't *****ed all night over stoopid stuff too.

Well, another one that thinks Judtech's actions were OK.

And another one I don't have to discuss it with any further either except to repeat that it's despicable imo.

Appears from the OP, that there was a non-stop barrage. Whether right or wrong, nobody listens to a jerk.

You are preaching to the Chior Woddy...and if this idiot thought he could find forgiveness in this Church...he came into the wrong sanctuary.:mad:

If I was Judtech...I would change my name and start all over again. I, for one, will always see this jerk as a classless, loudmouth, ASSISTANT COACH...that EVEN tried to justify his actions to a REAL group of officials.

Didn't John Wooden say:

"Your REPUTATION is how others PERCEIVE you...your CHARACTER is what you REALLY are."

P.S. Did this guy's wife really use Profanity as the Coach of a bunch of girls? What great role models these two are.:rolleyes:

Maybe she got a scholarship as well. Wonder if that exam I posted a couple days ago is the same one used back in the day?

Can someone have more than one screen name?

Look, I'm just as happy to see this a$$. coach taken to the woodshed over this, but:

I'm the father of a girl and I find it offensive that anyone thinks that the standards should be different for a female coach or a coach that is in charge of female players. It's as sexist as it gets.

+1

Great story. Nothing like owning up to a mistake yourself to teach students. Good job of taking a bad situation and using it for a learning experience.

Apparently in the OP, they did listen to the jerk. According to him, the girls stayed just behind the 3-point line on the technical shots. Without penalty.

OFC1 didn't listen. Not to the jerk. OFC3 was just as stoneless for letting his partner get run over time after time. And he is getting a penalty. Everyone but you on this board thinks he is a jerk.

There's no minimum height requirement.

Obviously.

Agree. Judge the actions. I can't speak for him but I don't think that Dan meant it that way though.

...fair enough.

Would you be happier if I changed it to "... ANY coach using profanity in front of a group of girls and boys."?

I just think it is bushleague to use profanity when coaching KIDS (girls or boys). If a Father or Mother wants to use a few choice words, in private, so be it...but, to be in a position of authority, in public, and in front of kids that their parents may not want such language used...shows a lack of respect for everyone around. JMHO.



"We are rarely able to interact only with folks like ourselves, who think as we do. No matter how much some of us deny this reality and long for the safety and familiarity of sameness, inclusive ways of knowing and living offer us the only true way to emancipate ourselves from the divisions that limit our minds and imaginations."

bell hooks
Gloria Jean Watkins

[QUOTE=RookieDude;721991]...fair enough.

Would you be happier if I changed it to "... ANY coach using profanity in front of a group of girls and boys."? (This is exactly what I thought you meant.)

I just think it is bushleague to use profanity when coaching KIDS (girls or boys). If a Father or Mother wants to use a few choice words, in private, so be it...but, to be in a position of authority, in public, and in front of kids that their parents may not want such language used...shows a lack of respect for everyone around. JMHO.

+1

Personally, I think it belittles any adult to use that language around kids. I can get through the toughest of games on the court without using profanity, so the coaches should be able to, as well.

So I guess it means that I may not punish the coach for doing it, but I certainly think less of them and their lazy vocabulary.

+1

...and I gotta tell ya Rich...if a coach uses profanity DIRECTED AT ME...then I deal with it in a much different manner than the coach cursing around the kids.;)

+1

Your quote is spot on. Your PS is a tad off. (Dont take this as accusatory, these are just 'big picture" questions intended to make people think. I use the word "you" in its plural sense):
How do you judge ones character? Would anyone like to have their character called into question b/c of one incident/mistake? People are far to eager to rush to judgement, make personal attacks and impune character of people they either don't know or limited if any information about. To use your words. You call me a jerk and classless loudmouth assistant coach. How do you know that? Of the 150+ games my wife and I have coached together, do you know how many incidents like this I have had? That answer would be a better judge of character then this one thread. Do you know how my association feels about my bench behavior? Have you seen my interaction with other officials at games
I coach or not? What disqualifies me as a "Real" official in your mind? These admitted inappropriate actions? Or do you know my body of work with which to make this decision?
You make a point about my wifes use of language. Do you know how often she swears? (at me doesn't count, b/c sometimes it is too cold to take out the garbage) Yet you write her off as a bad role model for female athletes. Do you do the same for Pat Summit C Vivian Stringer Geno or Tara Van DeVeer? Do you know her background? Do you know the types of players that we work with?

Maybe I just live in Mambi Pambi land, but I don't pass character judgement on anyone on this board (even Jurassic) b/c I don't know you personaly. I look at the mistakes people bring to this board as just that, mistakes, not windows into their soul and character. Do we judge all peoples character by actions they wish they hand't commited?

Jud, I don't really get the point of this thread. :confused:

You come to an officiating forum and post the actions of the coach we all hate and loathe. And better yet we find out that YOU did all this...someone who calls himself an official. And to top it all off, it also sounds like you've tried to justify some of your actions, even if you've admitted you were somewhat wrong.

You obviously know that you would receive almost zero support for what you did and get just about universally ripped.