Do you know what you've learned from this so far, Judtech? You've learned not to tell officials when you pull unsporting crap like that. From the excuses that you still insist on making, what you haven't learned yet though is to never pull unsporting crap like that. Oh, you'll still do it in the future. I've got no doubts about that. You just won't post about it here.

Then let me clarify: My actions were wrong, not somewhat wrong. If you read into it that I was trying to justify those actions then it is only due to my poor typing/communication skill.
Why did I post it? Share experiences. I have no issue in admitting when I did something wrong. Believe it or not this is out of 'character" for me and I usually try to go the extra mile when on the bench. I obviously failed in this attempt and have actually gotten a few good ideas to put into my quiver in the future, both here on the board and some rather nice Private Messages and I am grateful for them and open for any more!
Learning by shared experience, what message boards were made for!

Personally, I think we've been a little harsh on Judd, but that's just my opinion.

I'll add that it's a good thing I'm not coaching, because knowing myself as well as I do, I wouldn't react well to officials who don't know some very basic rules (like the fact that touching a rolling basketball does not equate to player control, thus traveling is impossible.) I would not respond well to an official telling my players they had to be behind the division line for technical foul free throws.

I'm more inclined to judge people based on what I know and how I've been trained, and that means I'm going to be more inclined to judge an official's rules knowledge than I am a coach's behavior.

And I'm certainly not going to judge a man's character based on a post he made while the adrenaline was still flowing from an incident like this. I don't recall him ever coming on here before and talking about having behaved like this, so it does seem to be an isolated incident. Y'all do whatever, though; it's a free country. :D

Multiple e-mail accounts

You definitely wouldn't enjoy officiating football.

Heh heh. No kidding.

You're not the only one.

Was he a saint? No. But OFC1 invited that grief upon himself by being so off-base on so many rules.

Item 1 was completely innocuous. Nothing he said was unsportsmanlike and it was a true statement. Plus, the ref blew the call.

Item 2 was certainly flirting with going too far and he was even wrong on the point he was making (you don't have LGP when you are running beside someone). That should have at least drawn a warning to the HC about the assistant's behavior.

Item 3 wasn't him....at least the part that was worthy of much attention or a T. And the ref had blown the call.

Item 4 was indeed too much and deserved a T....but he was right and the ref either knew it or at least doubted himself. The ref was in a dilemma about whether to call a T and/or eject the head coach (with no rule to support that) and expose his mistake(s) or retreat and take it as a learning experience. At the beginning, he was simply telling his players were to go (legally) and to not listen to the official. The coaches, even assistant coaches if they're seated, have the right to direct their players were to be on the court and how to play the game. Even if that instruction puts them in violation of a rule, then the officials should just make the call...particularly when the official suggests they move back and the coach directs them to stay. And even so, it would have only been a FT violation if the shot was missed...nothing more....certainly not a T or an ejection of the head coach. The ref was writing his one rules on this one and deserved to be called on it.

In the end, I can only hope OFC1 goes home and opens his rulebook so he doesn't invite that kind of trouble again by BS'ing his way through situations.

With regard to item 4, I see this as an example of "Pick your battles." Clearly the official was wrong, didn't have a leg to stand on, but is this a hill worth dying on? This is a victimless crime. Don't try to show an official up over this.
All you're gonna do is piss him off.

For many, many years I've been in the unfortunate position locally of having to try and find out why we lose so many promising officials each year so that we could maybe find a way to keep them. Invariably the majority answer is that it's just not worth the abuse they have to take. Iirc NASO did similar research and came up with the same answers. So, sorry. My sympathies lie with the officials only. They sureashell don't lie with any coach that would abuse and intimidate officials. Judtech's actions as a coach were detestable and indefensible imo. But hey, defend him if you must. Everybody gets to hold their personal opinion of coaches like Judtech.You know mine. And I'm not changing. I've seen too many good people ....friends....quit officiating because of they abuse they've received.

Maybe the officials that Judtech had in the game he described weren't very good. Hell, maybe they were border-line incompetent. If you feel that's justification for actions like Judtech's though, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And I respect your right to have that opinion. I will never, ever agree with that opinion though. Imo there is never any valid excuse to abuse and intimidate any official, no matter how bad that official may be.

Can you show me where Juddtech attempted to excuse or justify his behavior? Like I said, one poor game doesn't make a coach a bad person; especially when he seems legitimately remorseful. I just don't get how we've turned him into Hitler over this.

You know, if I was coaching, and I wanted my kids behind the shooter, I'd tell them to go there. I wouldn't be so beligerent, but you can be sure I'd force the issue.

Except there's no real need for the players to be there, other than the OP using that to show up the official that doesn't know the rules. The lane is cleared and there's going to be a throw in after the FTs. I'd just roll my eyes, tell the players to go behind the division line, and report this to the assignor after the game.

This post (and many others) is one of the reasons that I have a enormous respect for you. Thank you.

Seeing the biological father that I never saw has been lying in an Air Force military cemetary since 1944 after being KIA on his 30th mission, I really don't think your likening my detest for his actions as turning him into Hitler is very appropriate. I would never dream of making that particular comparison of anyone short of a mass murderer, let alone Judtech no matter how bad Judtech's actions might be in my mind. I detest Judtech's actions and I judged him on those alone. I don't know him as a person.

JUDTECH- "And yes it had the DESIRED affect of freezing their shooter as she procededed to miss her second shot".

That was a deliberate and admittedly planned unsporting act of intimidation to gain an advantage for his girls high school team. You rationalize it. I won't. I don't care how bad the officials are, there is NO excuse imo for behavior like that. If you're getting bad officiating, then complain about it using the appropriate and proper procedure.

Earlier this year, I had an extremely promising young official quit over similar actions from a coach. Deliberate acts to try and intimidate him. Good kid I'd know for years. Knew his father fairly well too. The kid was an outstanding high school player, played college ball while getting his degree and came back to this area to work. Now married with a young daughter. He did a little bit of officiating for us as a high school senior and during summers. He wanted to get involved with officiating again and I thought he had the potential to go to the college level. Now he's gone forever and our association...and basketball in our area.... are the poorer for it.

Can I forgive and forget? Nope. But I certainly can hope that the treatment that Judtech received here will stop him from repeating what he did in the future. And from his later posts, I think that it just might do that. At least maybe he'll think about it the next time he feels like going after officials.

We just have completely different perspectives, Snaqs. That's all I'm going to say.

I couldn't agree more. Judd's mea culpa has been met with mostly pi$$ & vinegar instead of being a learning experience for all.

I, personally, appreciate hearing from the coaches' side. It helps me understand the dynamics involved in emotional game situations. This understanding helps us become better officials, IMO. Like it, or not, we are in the people business. Learning to deal with people well will make you a better official.

Jurassic, you are correct to point out that Judd's behavior was unacceptable. Judd has acknowledged the same. Jurassic, you are wrong to question Judd's ability to be a good coach or good official based on one situation.

If one mistake is all it takes to disqualify somebody as a good official or coach, then both Jurassic and Judd fall short and should turn in their whistles/clipboards pronto.

Of course, the miscues well documented by both in this thread do not and should not define them. Instead, let's take from this thread what we really should: an excellent learning experience for us all.

And because you support officials in general, I will always have enormous respect for you and the majority (imo) of officials like you. We can argue and fight amongst ourself, but we are family.

Thank you.

Except it wasn't 'one mistake', it was a pattern of behavior. And the response comes off like the "I'm sorry if I offended anyone" mantra uttered by so many when they have been uncovered in less than honest behavior. What some of you are forgetting, is that he WAS NOT THE HC. And even if he was, and perhaps more latitude could be given, the fact remains that he was an AC pushing his weight around when what was required of him was to sit down and shut up. Could he have simply relayed things to the HC and let the HC alone handle things? Novel idea, isn't it? And speaking to the appropriate people i.e. assignors/AD AFTER the game should have been the road taken. Do any of you REALLY think this was an isolated incident and first time occurrence? Is Coach K that warm and cuddly guy you see in commercials?

I guess what surprises me about this post is that an official would come on here and "brag" about how he raked fellow officials over the coals while serving as an AC :rolleyes:

And in the very first part of the OP, he himself says "..I 'SORTA' sinned". As if what he did wasn't really all that big of a deal.

Look - if the officials from that same game had come on the forum and posted the whole situation, a bunch of us would have been all over them for the mistakes they made. It would have been some of the same ones who are all over this guy. And it would have been deserved.

But having bad officials is not a reason or excuse for an AC to be an a$$.

While I don't condone what you did I can say I understand. I started officiating as an undergrad then coached for several years in my early to mid 20s and still coach AAU in the summer. When I was younger I was probably a little more vocal and less forgiving than I should have been towards officials. I felt that because I knew the rules and had been trained by good officials that I had a right to hold officials doing my games to a high standard. And when they didnt meet that standard it was VERY frustrating.

As I've matured and gotten more into officiating and less into coaching I have found that I say very little to the officials when I am coaching. I realize that not all officials have had the same training I've had and that some just arent that good and nothing I say is really going to raise their level of officiating in that game. In fact, giving them a hard time will likely make it worse as they obviously are struggling to deal with the action in the game without having to worry about a coach.

I will still say a few things here and there and "work" an official like any good coach. But I always try to be respectful and will never try to show an official up. Coaching becomes very emotional once the competitive juices start flowing and I can only imagine that it's even more emotional coaching with your wife. But I do try to put myself in the officials shoes because regardless of what I think of their ability, I respect what it is we all do when we put on the uniform and step on the court.

I'm sure that I have done things as a coach or otherwise that if I posted for anyone to see online it would be easy for someone to form a negative opinion about me. So I'm not going to judge you based on one incident you decided to share on a message board and think it's a bit unfair to do so. I will say though that as an official and a coach, the coaches I respect the most are those that put 99.999% of their energy into coaching their kids. Trying to manipulate officials might get you a call here or there but in the long run it's never a good thing. Coach your kids and try to help the officials improve AFTER the game through the appropriate protocals.

...possibly...but, as an ex-teacher/coach I LOVED coaching football. In fact, it was my favorite sport to coach.


...Indianaref is talking about JR (Woddy)...you know this guy is going to have your back...I, like many here, would appreciate working for him.

I don't know...some people need a slap on the back (for a good job) and some people need a slap on the a$$ (for a bad job). I think JR, again like many here, will give you either one...it depends on what you need. I know I've had my share of spankings...and I hope I learned from them.

Jud...you've been spanked. Now, what you do with it depends on you.

+1

Wow...great stuff! I hate that I have been working and missed getting in on the 9 pages of conversations.

1st of all....I personally THANK Judtech for bringing his personal experience to the Forum....a place where MOST of us (Officials and Coaches) come to learn about the game to become BETTER (Officials and Coaches). Some call it bragging some call it sharing....either way thanks for the story Jud!

2nd. There is a LOT that can be learned from Judtech's "bad night" so this was a very valuable discussion in my eyes.

3rd I have been officiating for a few years...and have come to the conclusion it is the coaches' JOB (or best interest) to coach his/her players AND to influence the individuals who are officiating the game to hopefully put his/her team in a more favorable position. Let's be honest....that is the job of a GOOD coach!

4th Let's not forget that Judtech was in the role of COACH not OFFICIAL during this game and he was within his coaching right to act an @zz if he wanted to. It is the job of the OFFICIAL to deal with coaches and players when they get out of line. They obviously didn't.

5th Everybody has a computer...so everybody has an opinion....just put my opinion with all the other 9 pages of rants I've just read...

Thanks everyone on your thoughts....this is what makes this gathering hole a great learning place....

Peace...:cool:

First and foremost, my comparison was admittedly over-the-top. I should have known better, and used a different comparison.

I'm sorry.
I'm not going to rationalize it, and I don't think he has either. He's stating his intention at the time of the act, not his thoughts afterwards.

One more thing on this point, it only worked to ice the shooter because the official pressed the issue. Once the official blew his whistle to tell the players to move back, the icing was completed.

This is perhaps the most salient point made in this thread. There's no place for intimidating tactics, to be sure. That's a coaching issue. From an official's perspective, what about training? I'm seeing this a serious lack of training manifest itself in this;
1. This guy didn't know basic stuff.
2. He didn't know how to properly deal with a mouthy AC.

Let me add, that it seems he knew right away it was inappropriate. This post refers to a practice that likely occurred before he read the comments on this thread:


Maybe, your perspective is that of a trainer/assigner who deals with the attrition that comes with the way officials are treated by some coaches and fans.

Mine is that of a younger official who's still learning this game. And while I'm not justifying or rationalizing his behavior which has effectively been shown to be lacking in sportsmanship, I don't think we should let these officials off the proverbial hook either. Granted, they're not here to defend themselves, but if nothing else, there's training to be done in how to effectively silence a mouthy AC.

Thank you.

Disagree. If that were the coach's job, then it wouldn't be explicitly prohibited by rule (10-4-1b).

IMO this myth more than most is harmful to good games.

Those are the conclusions you have come to??? Have you ever read the Coaches Code of Ethics put out by the NFHS?

Jud admitted his goal for the whole "3 point line" incident was to ice the shooter. Had really only about 10% to do with principles and 90% to do with disrupting the game and making the official look bad.

I was the first one to call him all his behavior. And I stand by my original opinion that he was just being a jerk. That doesn't mean he's a jerk all the time. But that night he was.

What I take a bigger exception to is that he feels the need to fight the HC's battles. If the HC has a problem with any of the situations that occurred let her deal with the officials. Seeing as he is married to the HC Jud should be doing a better job of teaching her the rules so that she recognizes what is going on and so she can ask the correct questions of the officials.

We know at some point icing the shooter came to mind. Whether that was his initial intent is not mentioned.
My guess: he had a hunch the official had this rule wrong and would take the bait.

I agree with this, and that's been my point. Telling a lie doesn't make a man a liar, and acting like a jerk during a game doesn't make him a jerk. Now, if he does this regularly, that's different. Then he's a jerk. But having read his posts for a while now (aside from this thread), I've had the distinct impression that this was a one-off night for him.

That's an issue for marital counseling, IMO. ;)

I will say this, being an official, he should have known better. But I think he would agree with that. We all hope our better angels will come to our aid in situations like these, but it doesn't always happen.

In discussions away from the game, over the years, I have advised coaches that it is not in their best interest to argue rules with an official. Chances are, the official knows the rule in question better than the coach, and if this is not the case, it is unlikely that the coach will change the official's mind at that point. I certainly would not be above asking in some cases: (proper tone, palms open) "Excuse me, Mr. Ref. Are you sure they're supposed to get 7 free throws plus the ball for this?" But the bottom line is, this is an argument you just about can't win. Kinda like arguing with a cop. He has a gun, you don't.

Our actions are the best guide to our character.

I believe that officials should bear this fact in mind at all times.

Thank you....and appreciated, Snaqs.

No matter how mad I ever get with Judtech...rightly or wrongly on my part....I'd never dream of making that type of comparison of him. And if I was ever stoopid enough to unthinkingly do something like that, I'd apologize to him in a heartbeat.

I dunno, if some coach came in with that story, the first thing I am thinking is "Would the officials in question give the same version of "facts" that we are hearing? I rather doubt it."

I suspect Judtech is giving us a very particular version of events that at best only includes the facts that make his story the most interesting, and at worst could be largely fabricated as far as what the officials in question actually said, or did not say.

So you're calling him a liar?

I am saying that when someone comes in with a story about what happened, and the "point" of the story is to tell us all how incompetent/wrong/stupid/whatever someone else is, I am generally rather skeptical that I am hearing the entire story, and do not draw any conclusions about how incompetent the "other" person really is, since it is rather likely that they would not agree with the facts as presented if they came along and read the account as written.

Does that mean that I think he is lying? Not really - but it doesn't mean I am going to assume he is telling the entire story either.

Take the bit about the official and the rolling ball. If we asked that official what happened on that play, would we get the same story? Would they really say "Yeah, the ball was rolling on the floor, and the player touched it, so I said that was posession!"

Maybe - but maybe not. Given the posters general attitude in the post in question, I am giving the unamed officials the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not calling him a liar. But embellishment would be a safe call.

If those officials were that incompetent you would think somewhere in the OP there would be a couple a plays where Jud's team benefitted from gross misapplication of the rules. And what did Jud say to the ref in those situations.

Again, sometime I questioned back on page 1.

I remember you bringing that up. Frankly, I don't expect him to have done that for a couple of reasons.

1. He's already admitted he was being a jerk.

2. I have never had a coach tell me when he thinks I got a rule wrong in his favor; that's not their job. Their (perceived) job is to let me know when they think their team is getting the short end.

I just don't see that particular angle as telling.

I would never expect a coach to speak up on plays where calls go for his team. Matter of fact, I had that happen this year and the coach was just being a smart a$$ -- after he had already received a technical from me. He almost got the gate.

Coaches are advocates for their teams.

Head coaches are advocates for their teams. Assistant coaches like Judtech? Not so much.

Officials should also be advocates for their team, their fellow officials. Unfortunately(in my opinion, very unfortunately), some officials aren't. They'll use the same rationalization that Judtech used..... that the official invited that kind of trouble by not knowing the rules.

As I said, imo there's no excuse for behavior like Judtech's, no matter how incompetent the officials were in his game. I don't remember reading anywhere that the officials were incompetent to HIS team ONLY. There's a right way and a wrong way for coaches to deal with what they think are incompetent officials. Judtech opted to take the way that not only publically demeaned the officials but gave his team an admitted unfair advantage. And he was the assistant coach, not the head coach. That's telling to me.

Typing this at the ATL USO with what seems like an entire infantry of soldiers either coming home or headed out

Missing the point, Snaqs. I'm not really expecting Jud to have said anything, that's just me being an a$$-hat. But it is total bullsh!t that every glaring mistake by the officials went against his team. His team was just as likely to have some "bad" calls go their way but yet here in the forum, where he doesn't need to advocate for his team, he doesn't have one single instance where he says "we sure got the benefit of some horrible officiating on a couple of plays last night".

Thus my opinion about him embellishing the entire story. I can't trust his accounting of the details of each scenario.

Which begs the question, can anyone really trust anyone elses accounting of details in any scenario? Would you have been more willing to accept the assesment of someone who said they acted in such a way that made them look good? Make them look bad? Conform or contradict your (plural) POV or pre conceived assumptions? A great study is to look at Police Reports or Military After Action reports. More often then not, people who were a part of the same event have different recollections about them. It is just human nature.
Obviously, I was recalling the incidents from my point of view. The officials will have their own point of view, which may or may not correspond with my own recollections. I was not attempting to embellish anything and have stated my reasons for posting what I posted and where I was wrong in my actions.

1) And obviously I was basing my response on my point of view of your point of view.

2) My point of view is based solely ON YOUR own recollections.

Player Advocate ...
 

During my dark days as a middle school coach, there were times when I debated with an official to simply show my players, and their parents, that I was going to stick up for them when an official made a mistake.

Did I understand why a mistake was made? Of course, been there, done that. Did I think that my debate with the officials would somehow help us win the game ? No. Did I think that my debate with an official would somehow make him a better official by the end of our game? No.

The one, and only, reason was to show my players, and their parents, that I was going to stick up for them. Was I proud of myself? No. Would I do it again if I started coaching again? Probably.

Keep in mind that over the last twenty-five years that I coached I was only charged with one technical foul, for politely questioning a call when I was out of the coaching box. I was way down in the corner politely questioning a call, so I deserved it.

A polite T in return, I suppose.

Miss Manners ...
 

Yes. He first pointed out my position on the floor, and then let me have it. I knew I was out of the box, but didn't realize that I was that far out of the box until he pointed. He was the lead on my side and I could have shaken hands with him. Not a good idea to even politely question an official when you're that far out of the box.

So would I then be reading from my point of view, your point of view, disecting my point of view from the point of view of some one with multiple points of view?:p
Seriously, I agree with what you are saying. I was more directing my response at BNR.

Thankfully you didn't respond with either:
Since a box is a 3 dimensional object, how do you know it just didn't 'fall over and I am standing on top of it? (Took me a sec to get it b4 I T'd em)
Where is my box? Because what you pointed to looks more like a rectangle! (REALLY had to turn the filter up a notch on that one, but smiled as I T'd)

And you're still missing the point. I'm not saying you are embellishing b/c we are only hearing your POV.

I'm saying you are embellishing b/c every single instance of supposed incompetency went against your team. So if you can't be candid enough to bring up a couple of gaffes by the officials which benefitted your team then I call into question your remembrance of the game period.

And personally, I think that expectation is ridiculous and not relevant to the OP's story.