Table Official Off His Game That Night

[Freddy]

2-11: A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time
until the referee approves the final score.

Third quarter. Visitor player B1 is whistled for a personal foul. Just a minute or so prior to this I recall that the scoreboard showed that player had just committed his third foul. I go to the table to report the foul and the official scorebook keeper gives me the "That's his fifth foul" signal.

Now, the visitor's book has it that this was only his fourth personal. The scoreboard operator thinks it was only his fourth personal. The entire gym knows this was only his fourth personal. Heck, from what I sensed after seeing the scoreboard signify it was his third foul only a few minutes earlier, I thought it was his fourth foul, as did my two partners. But the official scorekeeper's book said it was his fifth personal foul.

Is this one of those "bookkeeping mistakes" which, due to an error obvious to everyone but the official scorebook keeper, may be corrected at the referee's behest, or do we have to go with what the official book says in spite of the erroneous nature of the table official's written record?

[APG]

That is a bookkeeping mistake that MAY be corrected with definite knowledge.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Freddy

2-11: A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time
until the referee approves the final score.

Third quarter. Visitor player B1 is whistled for a personal foul. Just a minute or so prior to this I recall that the scoreboard showed that player had just committed his third foul. I go to the table to report the foul and the official scorebook keeper gives me the "That's his fifth foul" signal.

Now, the visitor's book has it that this was only his fourth personal. The scoreboard operator thinks it was only his fourth personal. The entire gym knows this was only his fourth personal. Heck, from what I sensed after seeing the scoreboard signify it was his third foul only a few minutes earlier, I thought it was his fourth foul, as did my two partners. But the official scorekeeper's book said it was his fifth personal foul.

Is this one of those "bookkeeping mistakes" which, due to an error obvious to everyone but the official scorebook keeper, may be corrected at the referee's behest, or do we have to go with what the official book says in spite of the erroneous nature of the table official's written record?

I would go with your knowledge along with 2-11-11; correct the official book and get the game moving again.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I would go with your knowledge along with 2-11-11; correct the official book and get the game moving again.

While I agree, it's entirely possible that the scoreboard was wrong when it showed 3 fouls (it should have been 4).

Not enough infor in the OP to tell.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

While I agree, it's entirely possible that the scoreboard was wrong when it showed 3 fouls (it should have been 4).

Not enough infor in the OP to tell.

I can see that point. There could have been better communication with all personnel at the table.

[RobbyinTN]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

While I agree, it's entirely possible that the scoreboard was wrong when it showed 3 fouls (it should have been 4).

Not enough infor in the OP to tell.

Agree - It goes back to definite knowledge - which is difficult to know on items such as how many fouls a player actually has. I certainly don't keep up with them.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

Agree - It goes back to definite knowledge - which is difficult to know on items such as how many fouls a player actually has. I certainly don't keep up with them.

You could check that the team total equals the sum of the team personal totals.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

While I agree, it's entirely possible that the scoreboard was wrong when it showed 3 fouls (it should have been 4).

Not enough infor in the OP to tell.

The 2 scorebooks should of been in constant communication with one another.

On another note, the scoreboard operator should of been making sure both books were staying in constant communication & asked both books about player foul counts.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chseagle

The 2 scorebooks should of been in constant communication with one another.

On another note, the scoreboard operator should of been making sure both books were staying in constant communication & asked both books about player foul counts.

Of course. But, the question was what to do if there has been a mistake, not how to minimize the mistakes.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Of course. But, the question was what to do if there has been a mistake, not how to minimize the mistakes.

Well since the OP happened in the 3rd Qtr., then apparently neither book conferred during halftime to compare records, nor did the scoreboard operator ask to compare the books during halftime to compare with what was recorded on the scoreboard.

Definite knowledge does apply.

Was there not another record available (PA Announcer, Asst. Coach/Statistician) on foul counts?

Bob, since you're saying the OP Question is what needs to be done if there's a mistake, at the same time the question is being asked what should of been done to minimize any mistakes from happening.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Well since the OP happened in the 3rd Qtr., then apparently neither book conferred during halftime to compare records, nor did the scoreboard operator ask to compare the books during halftime to compare with what was recorded on the scoreboard.

No, this isn't apparent at all, as the discrepancy could have happened in the third quarter.

Originally Posted by chseagle

Bob, since you're saying the OP Question is what needs to be done if there's a mistake, at the same time the question is being asked what should of have been done to minimize any mistakes from happening.

1. No, that question is neither implied by nor properly inferred from the OP. First of all, from the perspective of an official, it's impossible to make sure the two are talking and comparing during the game. That's as far from our purview as players' jewelry is from yours. Secondly, how to fix a problem is a completely different issue from how to prevent it (which is often times known by the OP.)

2. You may want to provide that information, but it was by no means asked by the OP.

3. Fixed it for you.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, this isn't apparent at all, as the discrepancy could have happened in the third quarter.

1. No, that question is neither implied by nor properly inferred from the OP. First of all, from the perspective of an official, it's impossible to make sure the two are talking and comparing during the game. That's as far from our purview as players' jewelry is from yours. Secondly, how to fix a problem is a completely different issue from how to prevent it (which is often times known by the OP.)

2. You may want to provide that information, but it was by no means asked by the OP.

3. Fixed it for you.

So I have a different way of thinking, where in order to fix a problem, it is better to have prevented the mistake from happening in the first place.

I do realize that not always can a mistake be prevented however.

BTW thanks for the fix

[Adam]

Let's just say I found the fix you suggested to be far more apparent and obvious than your assumption that the books and scoreboard did not talk at half time.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Let's just say I found the fix you suggested to be far more apparent and obvious than your assumption that the books and scoreboard did not talk at half time.

Unfortunately I have seen it happen before where the books did not do comparisons during halftime

When I'm on scoreboard I'm in constant communication with the books concerning fouls, point totals, & who scored.

During halftime, I'm always comparing the books against what's on the board concerning fouls. (it helps that there's an option available to review player fouls on the board)

[SCalScoreKeeper]

Yes, definite knowledge applies in this situation-correct the home book and move on.At our school we use the Mark V books which gives you no established space under the team foul to record the jersey # of a player just called for a foul.What I have started to do this year is cross out the team foul and then record the jersey # next to the team foul.That way if things get a bit hairy and a coach says-"No # ___ does not have ___ fouls.She has ___." I can say she picked up team fouls (appropriate # of team fouls).If something like this were to happen in a game I was working I can go back and check my team fouls as a second reference.