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Jurassic Referee Wed Jan 12, 2011 07:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 714845)
You forgot to add that the officials and the players, after the ball was handed to the thrower for the throw-in, were all running around and acting as if the ball was live right up until the basket was made.

I get it.

You're saying that an official can hand the ball to a player for a throw-in. The player then makes a throw-in to a teammate while the official chops time in and the clock starts. That team can then pass the ball for any time period they want to before taking a shot. And after that shot was good, the official can THEN blow his whistle and call a technical foul on that team. And then cancel everything that happened before that, up to and including the throw-in, because the "T" occurred when the thrower was first was out of bounds before the throw-in started even though the technical foul wasn't actually called until umpty-ump seconds or minutes later.

A few questions.....
1) Why would the officials act as if the ball was live right from the start of the throw-in up until the made 3-pointer?
2) After the throw-in was completed and the administering official chopped time in and the clock started, how or do you correct the clock if.... say....the shooting team then took about 6 minutes to shoot?
3) Is there any time limit attached to how much time elapses between the occurence of the foul and blowing the whistle for that occurence?
4) Using that exact same logic, if that wrongly-given throw-in happened in the first quarter, could you still call the "T" in the fourth quarter and cancel everything that happened up to then?
5) Can you call that "T" right up until all officials have left the visual confines of the floor?
5) Did you even bother to read case book play 6.4.1SitD and that interp from 2002-03?
Camron, answers please. Note that post #6 that you responded to stated that there was NO whistle made by any official until AFTER the 3-point shot was made.

Camron Rust Wed Jan 12, 2011 07:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 715120)
Wasn't there a ruling once on 6 players in the game that might be illustrative? Indicating that all points scored must count, in spite of the fact that the T was "committed" prior to the try.
No, that T is specifically applied when discovered, not when it occurs....because you have no idea WHEN the 6th player entered.

Jurassic Referee Wed Jan 12, 2011 07:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 713849)
The only case play that is close is the one where the scoring team deliberate takes the ball OOB (when it should be the other team's ball) and throws it in. But that is close enough for me. They're going to lose that 3 pointer (it was a dead ball), give up 2 FTs and the ball.
How can this case play...10.1.8....be applicable when it states in the COMMENT-"This procedure shall NOT be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball."

Camron Rust Wed Jan 12, 2011 07:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 715149)
How can this case play...10.1.8....be applicable when it states in the COMMENT-"This procedure shall NOT be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball."
Exactly. The case we're talking about is NOT that exact situation. We're not talking about a mistake but unsportsmanlike behavior. We're not using that procedure at all. We're calling a T for unsportsmanlike behavior and penalizing it according to normal rules.

You keep trying to distort the play to make it fit your argument so you won't be wrong.

Answer ONE question....if you dare. If A2 commits a foul before A3 releases the shot, is the ball dead or not? Once you answer that honestly, the debate is over.

youngump Wed Jan 12, 2011 07:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 715175)
Exactly. The case we're talking about is NOT that exact situation. We're not talking about a mistake but unsportsmanlike behavior. We're not using that procedure at all. We're calling a T for unsportsmanlike behavior and penalizing it according to normal rules.

You keep trying to distort the play to make it fit your argument so you won't be wrong.

Answer ONE question....if you dare. If A2 commits a foul before A3 releases the shot, is the ball dead or not? Once you answer that honestly, the debate is over.
Suppose A2 commits a technical foul before A3 releases the shot. Suppose for example he vulgarly swears in his non-English mother tongue at the official. Now suppose that 4 minutes later the ball becomes dead and the official asks another official what the term means and that official explains it. Are you suggesting the ball was dead for that shot and for all of the subsequent 4 minutes?

I'm guessing that the answer is no because you don't believe you can go back and get the technical? If the answer is yes, please explain what the limits would be.
If the answer is no, then would it be fair to characterize your difference simply as to how far back you can go to penalize the action. Or is there something more fundamental you are arguing?
________
Cannabis seeds

Camron Rust Wed Jan 12, 2011 08:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump (Post 715177)
Suppose A2 commits a technical foul before A3 releases the shot. Suppose for example he vulgarly swears in his non-English mother tongue at the official. Now suppose that 4 minutes later the ball becomes dead and the official asks another official what the term means and that official explains it. Are you suggesting the ball was dead for that shot and for all of the subsequent 4 minutes?

I'm guessing that the answer is no because you don't believe you can go back and get the technical? If the answer is yes, please explain what the limits would be.
If the answer is no, then would it be fair to characterize your difference simply as to how far back you can go to penalize the action. Or is there something more fundamental you are arguing?
Why do people insist on being silly. No one ever goes back and makes a call for something that happened several plays ago.

The premise for the discussion is that the action is worthy of a technical foul (whether it is or not is a different debate). The events are back-to-back and the it takes a moment for the official to process the sequence of events and decide what just happened and whether they're going to do anything about it. We're talking about a time frame of a few seconds here, not several passes later.

How many people see a bump or some other contact and have a whistle exactly in time with the contact? How many people hear a T-worthy profanity and have a whistle exactly in time with the words coming out of the offender's mouth? No one. Anyone that makes any argument about the timing of the whistle for a foul (even a T) relative to the release is in fairyland.

Adam Wed Jan 12, 2011 08:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 715175)
Exactly. The case we're talking about is NOT that exact situation. We're not talking about a mistake but unsportsmanlike behavior. We're not using that procedure at all. We're calling a T for unsportsmanlike behavior and penalizing it according to normal rules.

You keep trying to distort the play to make it fit your argument so you won't be wrong.

Answer ONE question....if you dare. If A2 commits a foul before A3 releases the shot, is the ball dead or not? Once you answer that honestly, the debate is over.
But you're the one using this case play for inspiration on this call, right?

Camron Rust Wed Jan 12, 2011 08:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 715189)
But you're the one using this case play for inspiration on this call, right?

I don't think I ever cited that play as my inspiration.

My inspiration is that the play was deliberate and not within the spirit of the game. As such, it should be a T. Then, everything else is based on 6-7-* and related cases as to when the ball is dead.

Jurassic Referee Wed Jan 12, 2011 08:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 715175)
1)You keep trying to distort the play to make it fit your argument so you won't be wrong.

2) Answer ONE question....if you dare. If A2 commits a foul before A3 releases the shot, is the ball dead or not? Once you answer that honestly, the debate is over.
1) No, I'm just using the play we're supposed to be discussing....the one described in post #6 of this thread. I'm answering that post solely. Are you?

2) Yes the ball is dead in that situation at once by rule. And I have never said anything to the contrary. Well, except if someone tries to tell me that there were 3 passes and a shot from the time the foul occured and the whistle was blown. That would be kinda ridiculous, wouldn't it? But can you point me to where in post #6 anything like that actually happened? Was there ever a whistle blown for the technical foul that you so desperately want to call on the team that wrongfully took the throw-in? You keep saying the 3-point basket can't be counted because the ball became dead but when did the ball actually become dead? According to post #6, the only whistle that was blown was when the other coach was given a "T" AFTER the 3-pointer was made. You keep trying to distort the actual play described in post #6 to make it fit your argument so you won't be wrong.

just another ref Wed Jan 12, 2011 08:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 715194)
According to post #6, the only whistle that was blown was when the other coach was given a "T" AFTER the 3-pointer was made. You keep trying to distort the actual play described in post #6 to make it fit your argument so you won't be wrong.

I missed the part that it was the other coach that got the T that stopped play.
I'm changing my vote to: The shot counts because it's now too late to call the T the perceived act of deception. If they did it, they shouldn't have done it, but they got away with it.

Jurassic Referee Wed Jan 12, 2011 08:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 715186)
Why do people insist on being silly. No one ever goes back and makes a call for something that happened several plays ago.

The premise for the discussion is that the action is worthy of a technical foul (whether it is or not is a different debate). The events are back-to-back and the it takes a moment for the official to process the sequence of events and decide what just happened and whether they're going to do anything about it. We're talking about a time frame of a few seconds here, not several passes later.

How many people see a bump or some other contact and have a whistle exactly in time with the contact? How many people hear a T-worthy profanity and have a whistle exactly in time with the words coming out of the offender's mouth? No one. Anyone that makes any argument about the timing of the whistle for a foul (even a T) relative to the release is in fairyland.
Then when did the technical foul occur in post #6? I can't find one ever being called on the team that wrongfully took the throw-in. You keep insisting the ball was dead in post #6 before the shot but what made it dead?

You made up a completely different situation than the one that was described in post #6 and you're answering questions as per your situation, not the one described in post #6.

I have no problem with someone saying they could have called a unsporting technical foul on the team who wrongfully took the throw-in. All unsporting "T"s are a judgment call, and even if I disagree with your decision to call one in that situation that doesn't mean that the rules don't justify that call. And I don't have a problem with someone saying they called that unsporting "T" just before the 3-point shot was in the air but they didn't put air into their whistle until the shot was gone. But please don't blow smoke up my azz and try and tell me that you or anyone else can call a "T" on a team before one of their players shot, and then you can wait until the shot went in and there was a subsequent argument with a coach before you decided to blow the whistle for your unsporting "T" from before the shot. That's hardly believable.

Camron Rust Wed Jan 12, 2011 08:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 715194)
1) No, I'm just using the play we're supposed to be discussing....the one described in post #6 of this thread. I'm answering that post solely. Are you?

2) Yes the ball is dead in that situation at once by rule. And I have never said anything to the contrary. Well, except if someone tries to tell me that there were 3 passes and a shot from the time the foul occured and the whistle was blown. That would be kinda ridiculous, wouldn't it? But can you point me to where in post #6 anything like that actually happened? Was there ever a whistle blown for the technical foul that you so desperately want to call on the team that wrongfully took the throw-in? You keep saying the 3-point basket can't be counted because the ball became dead but when did the ball actually become dead? According to post #6, the only whistle that was blown was when the other coach was given a "T" AFTER the 3-pointer was made. You keep trying to distort the actual play described in post #6 to make it fit your argument so you won't be wrong.
Post #6: "Offical gives player the ball and he throws it in and his teammate makes an uncontested 3. As soon as the V team completed the throw-in V coach is in officials ear telling him it is not correctable"

That statement by the coach, which is what I'm basing the T on, is after the ball is inbounds and before the shot is released.

I was not addressing anything in post 6 after the the initial events (the throw-in, statement by coach V, and shot). I stated that, at that very point, we'd have a T on team V. Perhaps that wasn't clear. What the H coach did to earn the T after that point a completely different issue.

Whether it is T'able or not is not the question, that is the assumption I injected. What is not being suggested is what could be done once coach H was complaining and got the T....way too late then. The point we're debating is whistle vs. infraction vs. release as it applies to counting the shot...implying they (decision/whistle/shot) are fairly close together...and that order doesn't matter, only the order of the infraction vs. shot.

You've just agreed that, regarding a foul committed before by team A before the release, "the ball is dead in that situation at once by rule".

Unless you're changing your story, your contradicting yourself now. You previously said that
"If you haven't decided to call the "T" or had not blown your whistle before the ball left the shooter's hands on the 3-point attempt, you have no rules justication that I know of to then cancel the 3-point basket if it goes. The ball is live until the try is made or missed."
In one, you agree that the foul makes the ball dead by rule where, in the other, you said that if you hadn't blown whistle before the release, the shot had to count.

Adam Wed Jan 12, 2011 08:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 715193)
I don't think I ever cited that play.
Post 9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 713849)
Which "him" got the T? The V coach or the H coach?

Even it is not correctable, it is T'able. The fact that the coach said something the moment it was inbounds indicates they did it on purpose. That is an unsporting T.

The only case play that is close is the one where the scoring team deliberate takes the ball OOB (when it should be the other team's ball) and throws it in. But that is close enough for me. They're going to lose that 3 pointer (it was a dead ball), give up 2 FTs and the ball.

The H coach had every right to be pissed. The officials gave the other team the ball incorrectly at the end of the game when likely had a big impact. I'd give him a very long leash on that one.
Here you're quoting it and saying it's close enough for you, in spite of the fact that the case play itself says it only applies to the exact situation presented.

Jurassic Referee Wed Jan 12, 2011 09:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 715201)
Post #6: "Offical gives player the ball and he throws it in and his teammate makes an uncontested 3. As soon as the V team completed the throw-in V coach is in officials ear telling him it is not correctable"

That statement by the coach, which is what I'm basing the T on, is after the ball is inbounds and before the shot is released.

I was not addressing anything in post 6 after the the initial events (the throw-in, statement by coach V, and shot). I stated that, at that very point, we'd have a T on team V. Perhaps that wasn't clear. What the H coach did to earn the T after that point a completely different issue.

Whether it is T'able or not is not the question, that is the assumption I injected.
Yup, and the <font color = red>assumption</font> that you injected is NOT what we've been discussing. It's a completely different situation with a completely different answer than post #6. In post #6, there was NO technical foul called until after the 3-pointer was made, and then that "T" was called on the opposing coach.

And I'm going around and around repeating that. Time for me to say Hasta La Vista.

rockyroad Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 715208)

And I'm going around and around repeating that. Time for me to say Hasta La Vista.
Me, too...this is ridiculous. He doesn't get it and never will. (shrug)


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