No! No one is discussing post number 6!!!! How many times do we have to go over it? We are talking about a different situation in which a technical foul occurs and then it takes the official longer than normal to call it. You said some stupid stuff and you know it, stop trying to hide behind post #6.

Some of us thought we were. And at least one of us misread it, which changes everything as far as I'm concerned.

When does this foul occur? Just having 6 players does not make the ball dead.

Of course it isn't a foul. Do you call technical fouls on a dunk ending at the end of the period when the horn goes off .1 seconds before the dunk? What is there is a foul by the offense which causes the ball to become dead .1 seconds before there is a dunk? What if the player commits basket interference while grabbing the ball and dunks it on the way down?

That is way to long to go back and call a foul. In the play being discussed it is a couple of seconds later not 4 minutes. But if the official did call the foul it would be correct under the rules as there is no set amount of time that the foul must be called in.

That is the time limit to correct the throw in. There is no limit under the rules for calling fouls.

If the official calls the foul then yes, the ball was dead when the foul occurred. The clock would have to be rest, if the officials know the time, as it should have never started.


Ok, not a big deal. Jurassic Referee said things which go against the rules in 5 separate posts about the play where the foul was called several seconds after it occurred. But now he just ignores the fact that that play even exists. If someone says "it's not too late to call the technical foul" he will say "there is no technical foul in post #6."

The officials can correct, with definite knowledge, an obvious error by the timer. In this play, the official gave the ball to the wrong team, the throw-in was complete. I assume this means the signal was given and the clock was properly started. If the official does decide at this point to call a T for devious behavior, a call which gets harder and harder for me to swallow, there is no obvious error by the timer to correct.

Actually, they are - you might want to go back and re-read the entire thread. The entire discussion is based on the situation described in post #6 and Cam's assertion that a T should have been called based on coach V's statement after the fact and any intervening action canceled.

The clock can also be corrected when it malfunctions or is not started or stopped properly.

The timer did his job and started the clock when signaled to do so, but just because the official signals the clock to start does not mean that it started properly. Like if 3 free throws are awarded and the official signals for the clock to start after the second free throw....timer did not error as he was signaled to start the clock, yet the time may be corrected as the clock was not started properly. It is the same idea on the play being discussed.

Actually, it isn't. Starting the clock after the second of three free throws is an error, whether it was signaled or not. Starting the clock after a throw-in, even if it is soon to be followed by a questionable technical foul call, is not.

Can you have a throw-in while the ball is dead?

Yes, I was discussing 6 with a modification...the point that the T should have been called when coach V said what he said and if the official wasn't quick enough to sound the whistle before the release, but just after, the T still occurred before the release and the ball was dead.

The point I was making that Jurassic steadfastly refused to budge on is that the officials whistle doesn't have to beat the release to kill the shot. And he eventually came around to admitting that.

Not once have I suggested doing anything any later as others keep trying to claim I'm saying. I've tried to make that clear on several posts.

Over and over, I've said I'm talking about a timing race between the whistle for T vs. the shot....which, for anyone that actually read the posts, should have been obvious. I used terms like "moment", "one or two seconds", etc. Every example play I presented to demonstrate my point was a bang-bang-bang play where the infraction under question, the shot, and the whistle were one right after the other.

Once you've moved on and hit the point where coach H (in the original #6) got the T, it is definitely too late to go back and do anything...I've NEVER said otherwise.

Um no, JR refused to budge on your post #9 which was direct answer to post #6. I don't agree with your response in that post, especially your trying to use a case play that isn't applicable. You're the one that then went off on a tangent, not me.

Cobra, right there is all that I need to know about you and your rules knowledge. According to you, the foul occured when the wrong thrower stepped out of bounds. The official then wrongfully administered the throw-in. The throw-in ended and a team went down and shot the 3-pointer. The shot was good. After the made shot, a coach argued and got a "T". During the time between the player stepping out of bounds for the throw-in and the technical foul being called after the made 3-pointer, there was no whistle. Aamof I still can't find in post #6 where anybody EVER blew a whistle for the technical foul on the thrower. But you still insist that the ball was dead by rule all through that lengthy time interval.

The throw-in never happened according to you.

I'm kinda wondering why the other coach would get upset and get the T" after the made 3-pointer once you told him the throw-in never happened, the 3-pointer was no good and he was getting 2 free throws and the ball. You'd think he'd be kinda happy about that rather than being pissed off, wouldn't you?

As I said, that's all I need to know about you and your rules knowledge.

Yo Camron, your thoughts on this? Seriously.

Look, the fact is JR was talking about Post #6. You were discussing post #6 plus Camron's wrinkle.
You were talking past each other. The sooner you guys realize this the sooner you can go back to whatever it was you were doing.

Do you even realize the fact that you are contradicting yourself???

That is way too long - BUT there is no time limit.

Good grief.

No, in post 9, I said " The fact that the coach said something the moment it was inbounds indicates they did it on purpose. That is an unsporting T."

That was to indicate the foul occurred the moment the coach said it and was called right then. It was not a direct answer to #6 as if it were tagged on the end of everything in #6. You claimed the whistle had to sound before the release...and it doesn't.

No argument here Cam. As I've before, if it's reasonably prompt - all occurs within a second or two - we can sell it pretty effectively, and I think that most of us agree that anything much beyond that is going to be too late.

My concerns with this specific situation are:

1. The officials really screwed the pooch on this one. It's their job to know which team gets the ball after the TO, and this is doubly important in a close game down the stretch. If they'd paid attention and done their job correctly, the situation never would have occurred.

2. Is a T justified in this situation? Certainly the comment by coach V is suspicious, but IMHO it is not enough in and of itself to justify a T. What was the context? Maybe he just realized at the last second his team was mistakenly given the ball for throw-in. You'd think that if it was a deliberate act, he'd be smart enough to not overtly attract attention to it....playing dumb would be a much smarter approach. I think it's one of those HTBT situations.......

3. Ambiguities and outright contradictions within the NFHS rules and interpretations. There's plenty of parallels within the rules that place a time limit on when a penalty can be assessed - for example, an illegal sub becomes a player once the ball becomes live and you can no longer penalize. Does anything similar apply here? How does the official wrongly giving the ball to a thrower from the wrong team affect it? Does it fall into the "when occurred" or "when discovered" category?

A key issue in this discussion is "did the ball become live?" Rule 6-1-2-b says it becomes live on a throw-in, when it is at the disposal of the thrower. If we proceed to throw-in administration, 7-6-2 says "The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in." At face value, you'd expect that this means the ball isn't live until both the above conditions are satisfied, but we have a case play that directly contradicts that, saying that we can't correct giving the ball to the wrong team for throw-in once the throw in ends. Yes, the specific case involves an AP situation, but it doesn't specifically limit itself to that situation as some case interps clearly do, implying that it would be valid for any wrong team throw-in administration error by the official - this is further supported by the fact giving the ball to the wrong team for throw-in is not included in the list of correctable errors specified by rule. How can a throw in end if according to 7-6-2 it never started? In the case of a made basket it's clear the ball doesn't become live until it's at the disposal of the team entitled to the throw-in, but from the interp it appears that on a throw-in administered by an official that's not necessarily the case, and at least some of the time the ball becomes live when given to the thrower, whether they're from the correct team or not. Like I said, ambiguous and contradictory.....a little consistency would be nice......