Question and Advice

[Clark Kent]

Three-person boys varsity game. Ball was thrown into the post on my side of the court while I was in the C position. My Lead was coming across, so I was officiating the open look I had and was ready to slide up to Trail and the next advantageous moment.

A44 Catches the ball with his back to the basket and the defender (B15). A44 turns and as he turns he lowers his shoulder, however at the same time (or very close to it) B15 is swiping down hard and catches A44's arm. Both go to the ground in what appears to be a hard (not intentional nor flagrant) defensive foul.

Both lead and I blow our whistles I was intending to go with an offensive foul, but only got my arm part way up when I recognized my partners whistle as well as closed on the two players than have now crashed to the floor. My partner on the other hand has a defensive foul on B15 and is also on top of things assuring that nothing extra is occurring with bodies on the floor.

In hindsight I wish I would have handled things differently, but because the "hard" foul by the defender I felt it would be very difficult to "sale" my offensive foul even if it actually occurred first, and hence didn't approach my partner to inform him that I had something different (my mistake).

In this situation where my arm moved upward but stopped short of a preliminary signal we aren't obligated to call a double foul....or are we?

To add to the already complex situation, the B's coach heard my whistle blow and saw my arm move and astutely began to point it out yelling that I was going to call a travel prior to the foul. The coach boisterously begged and pleaded for the "travel", making me feel even worse for not having communicated better with my partner.

So in short, I'm asking for the sagacious advice of those who frequent this forum on how to have better handled that situation...in particularly with the coach noticing my arm being raised and then quickly dropped.

Thanks

[amusedofficial]

You're not obligated to call a double foul unless and until you both signal conflicting calls, i.e. one signals charge and one signals block.

If you both whistle it, and even if you both go up with the foul sign, you still have the right to defer to your partner. You are not obligated to do so and may signal what you think you believe you probably saw, in which case it is a double foul. However, in the absence of conflicting mechanics, and where you have deferred to your partner, there is no double foul.

Perhaps I should say it's not a blarge until we say it is.

[Forksref]

You don't have to defer to your partner. Go to him and discuss it. The discussion usually goes like, "I've got this and you've got that and this occurred first so we go with it." If both happened at the exact same time, then you've got a double foul, which is rare.

I defer to my partner when we've both got the same, usually obvious call, and he is in his primary.

I think it looks worse if you've got an arm that partially goes up and you don't discuss it with your partner. Then, the B coach has a legitimate beef. If you discuss it then you have something concrete to tell that coach about what happened.

[Camron Rust]

The only conflicting fouls that we're obligated to turn into a double foul are a block and a charge (note that a charge is NOT necessarily the same as a player control foul). That is because they're one act for which two officials have opposing opinions. (no need to reopen that debate again).

When one of the two fouls is something else, they're most likely not two opinions of the same contact but two different contacts.

In your case, it sounds like A charged while B committed an illegal use of hands foul. If one clearly came before the other, you could go with that and rule that the other was incidental (non-intentional dead ball contact). You could also go with a double foul if they were approximately the same time but the rules don't require it.

[amusedofficial]

Originally Posted by Forksref

You don't have to defer to your partner. Go to him and discuss it.

You're right

[Kelvin green]

Here is what I would ask.

How did you pregame this?

Who had primary call? If it was lead's primary let lead have it, If it was your primary you should have first shot?

There are going to be double whistles, get your hand up and keep it there. If you acknowledge that it is his call, then tell coach he had call, etc. Timidity will kick your butt....

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The only conflicting fouls that we're obligated to turn into a double foul are a block and a charge (note that a charge is NOT necessarily the same as a player control foul).

This is a revelation. Around here the charge signal is almost never seen as a preliminary. Usually it is just PC, sometimes supplemented with a point in the proper direction. You mean to say if you signal block, and I signal only a PC, it is ok to discuss and come up with one call? I'm sure others will chime in.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Three-person boys varsity game. Ball was thrown into the post on my side of the court while I was in the C position. My Lead was coming across, so I was officiating the open look I had and was ready to slide up to Trail and the next advantageous moment.

A44 Catches the ball with his back to the basket and the defender (B15). A44 turns and as he turns he lowers his shoulder, however at the same time (or very close to it) B15 is swiping down hard and catches A44's arm. Both go to the ground in what appears to be a hard (not intentional nor flagrant) defensive foul.

Both lead and I blow our whistles I was intending to go with an offensive foul, but only got my arm part way up when I recognized my partners whistle as well as closed on the two players than have now crashed to the floor. My partner on the other hand has a defensive foul on B15 and is also on top of things assuring that nothing extra is occurring with bodies on the floor.

In hindsight I wish I would have handled things differently, but because the "hard" foul by the defender I felt it would be very difficult to "sale" my offensive foul even if it actually occurred first, and hence didn't approach my partner to inform him that I had something different (my mistake).

In this situation where my arm moved upward but stopped short of a preliminary signal we aren't obligated to call a double foul....or are we?

To add to the already complex situation, the B's coach heard my whistle blow and saw my arm move and astutely began to point it out yelling that I was going to call a travel prior to the foul. The coach boisterously begged and pleaded for the "travel", making me feel even worse for not having communicated better with my partner.

So in short, I'm asking for the sagacious advice of those who frequent this forum on how to have better handled that situation...in particularly with the coach noticing my arm being raised and then quickly dropped.

Thanks

1. No, you are not obligated to call a double foul.
2. When you hit your whistle, once heard your partner's whistle (and/or saw his hand), you had "options."
A. You can defer the call to him,
B. You can get together and discuss what you each have,
C. He can come defer to the call to you,
D. See who gets to the table first (OK, kidding with that one).

Option A (or Option C) is the best option IF there is a 99.99% chance you both had the same call. In most situations, this will be the case. Option B is a much better option if there is doubt as to whether a violation happened before a foul OR if there is a possibility that your partner had a different foul call (perhaps two different defensive players involved OR a potential conflict between a player control foul and a defensive foul).

Arguably, the primary official in this case was somewhat gray -- since the lead had just arrived and you seemed to be in transition from center to trail. In these situations, I think that the best solution from a game management perspective is to go with the call that is the easier sell. In this case, by your own description, your partner's call was likely the best solution.

In this case, since YOU KNEW you likely had a different call (based on YOUR DESCRIPTION of the play) and you knew that the identification of the primary official may have been in doubt, you should have gone to him with what you had AND recommended that he take the call.

In lieu of that, at the very least, you should have gone to the coach and SOLD the fact that you had the SAME CALL your partner had.

If he had been a truly observant coach, he would have noticed your fist coming up (rather than an open hand) and would not have been arguing for a travel, but rather the call you actually had. In that case, you still would have been better off SELLING your partner's call (based on your description of the play).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is a revelation. Around here the charge signal is almost never seen as a preliminary. Usually it is just PC, sometimes supplemented with a point in the proper direction. You mean to say if you signal block, and I signal only a PC, it is ok to discuss and come up with one call? I'm sure others will chime in.

Nope, he's saying if the prelim signal is given on any play other than a block/charge sitch, you can do get together.
If, however, it's given on a block/charge play, you cannot.

I've chimed and will now unchime unless something new comes up in this pointless discussion.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

In lieu of that, at the very least, you should have gone to the coach and SOLD the fact that you had the SAME CALL your partner had.

I disagree. "Not just lie, but emphatically lie."

[btaylor64]

My opinion is that if it is a double whistle, it is dependent on who has the best angle. U have to know not only what u saw but see the play through your partner's position's eyes. If the play curled on you and you ended up with a closed look or a look that u believe is not as good as your partner's, then I believe you defer to him, but if you believe you had the best look of the whole entire crew then you owe it to them to trust what you saw, know that its the correct call and make it. I'm not big on having a bartered discussion on what should we do in regards to a def. Foul or off. Foul. Someone had the better look and saw the right thing, you just have to understand and realize who that was. There have plenty of times where I have deferred where, for example, an off. Player hooks a guy on a curl and I'm going offensive and my partner has a defensive foul and I give it up to him/her bc I know they had a good "see thru" look prior to the curl and I have also had the same play where I still call off. Foul bc the whistle came from the Lead After the curl had taken place and now the hooking of the defender makes it look like, in the lead's eyes, that the defender walks into the offensive player's space but it was the hook that made it look that way.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Three-person boys varsity game. Ball was thrown into the post on my side of the court while I was in the C position. My Lead was coming across, so I was officiating the open look I had and was ready to slide up to Trail and the next advantageous moment.

A44 Catches the ball with his back to the basket and the defender (B15). A44 turns and as he turns he lowers his shoulder, however at the same time (or very close to it) B15 is swiping down hard and catches A44's arm. Both go to the ground in what appears to be a hard (not intentional nor flagrant) defensive foul.

Both lead and I blow our whistles I was intending to go with an offensive foul, but only got my arm part way up when I recognized my partners whistle as well as closed on the two players than have now crashed to the floor. My partner on the other hand has a defensive foul on B15 and is also on top of things assuring that nothing extra is occurring with bodies on the floor.

In hindsight I wish I would have handled things differently, but because the "hard" foul by the defender I felt it would be very difficult to "sale" my offensive foul even if it actually occurred first, and hence didn't approach my partner to inform him that I had something different (my mistake).

In this situation where my arm moved upward but stopped short of a preliminary signal we aren't obligated to call a double foul....or are we?

To add to the already complex situation, the B's coach heard my whistle blow and saw my arm move and astutely began to point it out yelling that I was going to call a travel prior to the foul. The coach boisterously begged and pleaded for the "travel", making me feel even worse for not having communicated better with my partner.

So in short, I'm asking for the sagacious advice of those who frequent this forum on how to have better handled that situation...in particularly with the coach noticing my arm being raised and then quickly dropped.

Thanks

I have one question and one observation.

Question: Was the L still coming across from the "B" position when he made his foul call or was he already in the "C" position?

Observation: Whether he was still coming across or already in the "C" position, it is my opinion that since A44 had his back to the basket I think that this is the C's call because he has been watching the entire play.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The only conflicting fouls that we're obligated to turn into a double foul are a block and a charge (note that a charge is NOT necessarily the same as a player control foul). That is because they're one act for which two officials have opposing opinions. (no need to reopen that debate again).
When one of the two fouls is something else, they're most likely not two opinions of the same contact but two different contacts.

In your case, it sounds like A charged while B committed an illegal use of hands foul. If one clearly came before the other, you could go with that and rule that the other was incidental (non-intentional dead ball contact). You could also go with a double foul if they were approximately the same time but the rules don't require it.

Camron:

Come on. What better way is there to start the New Year and for me to start a rousing debate about whether A1 can commit a charging foul against B1 at the same time that B1 is commiting a blocking foul against A1. Where is your sense of adventure.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

I always try to pre-game this with people I have never worked with or have not worked with enough.

Around here we tend to give this to the primary coverage official unless there are other situations that can dictate who calls it, like who has called more fouls, who has a better angle, where did the ball come from or did something happen first?

If anything is learned this should be talked about every pre-game with people you do not work with normally or you have not worked with in a long time and you can avoid confusion. There are even many ways to handle this other than what I stated, but if you talk about it you can hash-out all the philosophies and perspectives.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I always try to pre-game this with people I have never worked with or have not worked with enough.

On double whistles, let’s both hold our preliminary signal and not give a block or player control signal.
Make eye contact with each other. Give the call to whoever has the primary coverage, most often the
lead official, unless you definitely have something different that happened first, in which case we’ll
talk about it.

Keep in mind that Connecticut is not only the "Land of Steady Habits", but is also the "Land of Two Person Games".