Messy situation

[Adam]

Originally Posted by youngump

If you insist he can't have both (the timeout and the t effects gone), then why not give him the choice. (Though I think you can say that he paid for the timeout with the free throws and lose the rest. Sure it was a cheap timeout but since he didn't get to choose whether to pay ...)

What I'm saying is you can't go back after the 2-10 time frame and take away the free throws, no matter how you slice it.

What if that foul was the team's 6th, and then they only committed one more foul that half, resulting in two made free throws. Do you go back and wipe those FTs off, too?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

What I'm saying is you can't go back after the 2-10 time frame and take away the free throws, no matter how you slice it.

I think we all agreed with that, didn't we? In the OP, it was within the time limit. Mistake was discovered, T was erased, free throws are now unmerited. Take them off the board and resume at POI. This work for you?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think we all agreed with that, didn't we? In the OP, it was within the time limit. Mistake was discovered, T was erased, free throws are now unmerited. Take them off the board and resume at POI. This work for you?

Works for me...they were unmerited free throws due to a bookkeeping error. The time frame requirements are met - take the points off the board, erase the T, and play on.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think we all agreed with that, didn't we? In the OP, it was within the time limit. Mistake was discovered, T was erased, free throws are now unmerited. Take them off the board and resume at POI. This work for you?

At this point I'm not sure what we've all agreed on. The argument seemed to be that since it's a "bookkeeping error," it can be corrected (the whole thing) at any time. I'd like to see an interp on this particular issue to be honest.

[Judtech]

I'll stir the pudding. The argument could also be that we JUDGED it to be a bookkeeping error. After we render our judgement, unless covered by the CE section, that judgement is final. Same as any other foul or violation. Again, just b/c we recieve other information doesnt affect anything. If I am doing a game and I call a foul but see on the video screen it was clearly NOT a foul, am I going to take it back?
Still, if we take time to sort through it at the table before issuing any T, it would go along way to eliminating this problem.

[Camron Rust]

After the T, the other team got possession, are we going to cancel the points they scored on that possession or cancel the PC foul committed by their team on that possession...all under the premise that it was a bookkeeping error and everything that followed from it was erroneous?

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

After the T, the other team got possession, are we going to cancel the points they scored on that possession or cancel the PC foul committed by their team on that possession...all under the premise that it was a bookkeeping error and everything that followed from it was erroneous?

You mean a "Do Over"?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

After the T, the other team got possession, are we going to cancel the points they scored on that possession or cancel the PC foul committed by their team on that possession...all under the premise that it was a bookkeeping error and everything that followed from it was erroneous?

WTF are you talking about? The Op'er was very clear that the Visiting Coach brought the roster issue to their attention as soon as the second free throw was shot...so you're just making crap up now? For what purpose?

In the OP, it was a bookkeeping error that led to unmerited free throws - the time frame is intact. Fix it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

WTF are you talking about? The Op'er was very clear that the Visiting Coach brought the roster issue to their attention as soon as the second free throw was shot...so you're just making crap up now? For what purpose?

In the OP, it was a bookkeeping error that led to unmerited free throws - the time frame is intact. Fix it.

There were people, not the OP, referenced by Snaqwells claiming they'd cancel the T and maybe other consequences at any time, even minutes/quarters later. THAT is what I was talking about.

I agree that it can be fixed up to a point...and that exact point is clearly debateable. I believe it to be when the first FT is taken. I could accept that it could be later...as late as the normal correctable error limits....no later. After that, there is no going back and changing anything except for perhaps the number of timeouts remaining.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

After the T, the other team got possession, are we going to cancel the points they scored on that possession or cancel the PC foul committed by their team on that possession...all under the premise that it was a bookkeeping error and everything that followed from it was erroneous?

Can an "do over" argument be made that 10.1.8 Comment is a specific case play where a field goal and common fouls are cancelled.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Can an "do over" argument be made that 10.1.8 Comment is a specific case play where a field goal and common fouls are cancelled.

No, in that case team A, having just scored, threw in a dead ball and scored a dead ball. The ball would have only become live had team B taken it OOB for the throwin.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by judtech

still, if we take time to sort through it at the table before issuing any t, it would go along way to eliminating this problem.

+1

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Still, if we take time to sort through it at the table before issuing any T, it would go along way to eliminating this problem.

And I'll add that I'm going to take a hard look at the home book. If it's sloppy and having problems, while the visiting book is, by contrast, right on top of things, I might go as far as to rule the visiting book as the official book from that point on per 2-11-11. (And before we all start belaboring the point, there's nothing in the rule as to when the referee can do this - they could do it at any time during the game they felt it necessary.) Might be a great way to send a message.

Thoughts?