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-   -   Messy situation (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/60279-messy-situation.html)

zm1283 Wed Dec 29, 2010 04:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 710710)
I seem to remember some constipation...I mean consternation surrounding this scenario on this forum.

It's part of the case play in 3.2.2 that bob jenkins posted in this thread. Snaqs is right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 710713)
True, let me change it.

A15 reports to the table and the table informs the officials before play begins. Coach then has the opportunity to withdraw A15 prior to participation (perhaps his team has the ball and he desires to add the player to the book when it won't cost him a possession.)

So if A15 reports but has not been added yet, as long as the ball doesn't become live the coach does not have to add him yet and can sit him back down and then either add him later or keep him on the bench? Do I have that right?

BillyMac Wed Dec 29, 2010 04:39pm

There Are No Stupid Questions ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 710693)
How about after the first FT?

Correctable error? Unmerited free throw?

Adam Wed Dec 29, 2010 04:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 710715)
It's part of the case play in 3.2.2 that bob jenkins posted in this thread. Snaqs is right.

Yep, the question is whether or not any statistical input from A15 (scoring or fouls) changes this.


Quote:

Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 710715)
So if A15 reports but has not been added yet, as long as the ball doesn't become live the coach does not have to add him yet and can sit him back down and then either add him later or keep him on the bench? Do I have that right?

Yep.

Welpe Wed Dec 29, 2010 04:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 710717)
Yep, the question is whether or not any statistical input from A15 (scoring or fouls) changes this.

Yup, that's what I was referring to. There was quite a discussion surrounding this not too long ago wasn't there?

Camron Rust Wed Dec 29, 2010 05:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 710700)
Why wouldn't he be?

Maybe it was a girls game? ;)

letemplay Wed Dec 29, 2010 05:25pm

Are you guys saying if A15 (not in book) gets in game for a few minutes without fouling or scoring(so as no change was made to book and officials are not notified), goes out, and never returns, there's no penalty that can be enforced?

Adam Wed Dec 29, 2010 05:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 710741)
Are you guys saying if A15 (not in book) gets in game for a few minutes without fouling or scoring(so as no change was made to book and officials are not notified), goes out, and never returns, there's no penalty that can be enforced?

Yep, 3.2.2C in your casebook.

Note the case play says nothing about whether A25 had scored or not, so an argument can be made that even if A25 fouls or scores, you still can't enforce any penalty.

Eastshire Wed Dec 29, 2010 05:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 710716)
Correctable error? Unmerited free throw?

The penalty for a T is 2 free throws and the ball to the opponent. Since a T was called, even though it was called in error, the free throw is merited.

RookieDude Wed Dec 29, 2010 05:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 710563)
Okay, I stand corrected.

...have you told the ol' boy you officiated with this?;)

BillyMac Wed Dec 29, 2010 05:56pm

Dueling Administrative Technical Fouls ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by letemplay (Post 710741)
Are you guys saying if A15 (not in book) gets in game for a few minutes without fouling or scoring(so as no change was made to book and officials are not notified), goes out, and never returns, there's no penalty that can be enforced?

If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name and uniform number must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game. If there is no request for change, or if the team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

deecee Wed Dec 29, 2010 07:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 710694)
First, I hope the official charged the team, not the coach, with the T.

Second, yes if the free throw has not yet been taken, you're not too late to fix it. If, however, the free throw has been taken, what's done is done.

An interesting question would be if the team would still have a time out left since they paid a T for their 5th timeout.

Why can you not? These were unmerited free throws. Wipe them off then rescind the T. Done. And it will be done in my game because it sure as hell is the right thing to do.

Eastshire Wed Dec 29, 2010 07:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 710762)
Why can you not? These were unmerited free throws. Wipe them off then rescind the T. Done. And it will be done in my game because it sure as hell is the right thing to do.

They are merited free throws. Free throws are correctly awarded when a T has been called. You can't go back and wipe off a foul after play resumes even if you were wrong to assess it in the first place.

An unmerited free throw is a free throw that is unwarranted based on the foul called. Examples include awarding one and a bonus prior to the offending teams seventh team foul or awarding a second free throw after a missed first throw before the tenth team foul.

Sometimes we kick it. When we do, it's important to understand what we can and cannot fix. While I appreciate your motives, the rules do not allow us to fix this error.

bob jenkins Wed Dec 29, 2010 08:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 710719)
Yup, that's what I was referring to. There was quite a discussion surrounding this not too long ago wasn't there?

Some think the case play is in error (not unlike the "backcourt interp" we all love to hate.)

Those opposed to the ruling fall back on "the scorer shall keep track of those who enter the game" (or whatever the rule is -- I'm without my books), and for the scorer to do that, s/he'd have to enter the information, even if the student-athlete is not longer in the game.

rwest Wed Dec 29, 2010 09:31pm

Based on what rule reference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 710694)
First, I hope the official charged the team, not the coach, with the T.

Second, yes if the free throw has not yet been taken, you're not too late to fix it. If, however, the free throw has been taken, what's done is done.

An interesting question would be if the team would still have a time out left since they paid a T for their 5th timeout.

What rule reference that states we can't fix this after the first free throw?

just another ref Wed Dec 29, 2010 09:56pm

What says we can't rescind a technical foul? Ref passes a glaring coach, as he turns away, he hears "You suck!" He whistles, signals, and reports a technical foul on the coach. His partner then tells him the actual speaker was a fan behind the bench.

Must we shoot then?


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