Messy situation
 

Follow closely....this gets ugly.

I was working a BV holiday tournament today about an hour from home. Neither of the two teams playing were the host team. My partner is the R, and I'm the U for this particular game. I am in my 4th year and my partner is at 15+ years and has worked the state finals recently.

During the first half after I report a foul, the scorer and timer wave me over to the table. They inform me that V12 has entered the game but is not in the scorebook. I ask if he had just entered during the present dead ball or if he entered at the last stoppage of play. They tell me that he came in the last time the clock was stopped which was 20-30 seconds before this. As my partner comes up, I start to quote 10-1-2, saying that we have to enforce the penalty before the ball becomes live, otherwise it is too late. I am about to tell the scorer to simply add V12 to the book and move on, when my partner steps in and says that "Any time you add a player to the book it's a technical". I try to slow him down and reason with him, but he was having none of it. I wasn't going to stand there and argue with him, and he was adamant that we enforce the technical, so I relented.

So, we turn to the H head coach and ask for a shooter. (We are both standing at the table) The HC asks if the shooter can be anyone on the team, including a player from the bench. As I start to tell him that yes, the shooter can be any eligible team member, my partner now steps in again and says "No, it has to be one of the five players on the court". I turn to him and try to tell him that anyone who is an eligible player can shoot the free throws for a technical, he again was having none of it, so I didn't argue with him and let him have his way. (By the way, he ordered the other nine players behind the division line during the free throws. I have had 4-5 other partners either enforce this mythical rule or quote it this year....unreal)

As soon as the shooter for the H team finishes his second free throw (He made one of them), I hear the V HC asking me something. He shows me that V12 was in fact in their scorebook that was provided to the official scorer before the game started. :eek: This is where I'm not sure what we could have done. I was going to go with a correctable error, but 2-10-4 has me doubting that now that I read the rule. It says that the unmerited free throw can be canceled and all activity during the free throw can be canceled except for unsporting, flagrant, intentional, or technical fouls. (So we couldn't have canceled the free throw because we had an administrative T...?)

I tell my partner that V12 was in fact on the roster that the V team provided to the scorer and that it was a bookkeeping error and that we shouldn't have penalized it. He again disagrees and says that we have to use whatever the official book says. I tell him that the teams only have to provide their rosters to the scorer, and it is up to the scorer to copy the names/numbers/starters correctly. He wouldn't back down and we go on.

At halftime, we discussed the whole mess. He told me that he "Wanted to get through the whole thing quickly because it made us look bad to be discussing the situation in front of the scorer's table" and that "It makes us look like we don't know what we're doing". I told him that we would have been better off slowing down and getting everything right. I showed him the case play from 10.1.2, but he wasn't going to admit he was wrong no matter what I showed him. He still didn't believe me that any eligible team member can shoot technical foul shots. He also told me that the HC is responsible for the official book no matter what. I asked him if that was the case, why wouldn't home teams' scorers leave off a player from the visiting team on purpose in order to get a technical called on them.

:(

We often take the official book to both coaches and have them approve it.

"coach is this your official roster?" they look it over and approve it or correct it before the 10 minute mark....

and if they actually look at it, pay attention to it, and answer with the same attention to detail and conviction as when they're asked, "Coach are your players properly equipped and ready to play?" then they're may be an issue down the road anyway....... just sayin. ;)

The only one which must be discovered before the ball becomes live to start the game, is 10-1-2a, changing a designated starter. 10-1-2b, adding a name to the team member list, is penalized when it occurs.

You could have corrected the error and canceled the free throws. What you cannot cancel is a T that occurs during the unmerited free throws.

Look at the first casebook play under Rule 10.

Edit: 10.1.2b

That is what I thought.

This is done by a lot of officials around here, just not in this particular game.

The point remains that the HC doesn't have to return to the table after the 10-minute mark to verify the scorer has copied his roster correctly.

When it occurs. The technical occurs when you add the player to the book, not when the player entered the game.

The ball is dead. V12 is discovered to be participating but is not in the scorebook. He must now be added to the scorebook. You now assess a 'T'.

It is penalized when the infraction occurs, which is when the player enters the game. The HC is asking the scorer to add his player to the book when the player enters the game.

Am I reading 10.1.2b completely wrong? It seems fairly specific. I had this play happen two years ago and called the technical and was corrected when I posted about it here.

So what is the difference between "occurs" and "discovered" in 10-1-2? Is the case play 10.1.2b wrong?

You are interpreting it wrong. The infraction is for entering the name into the book. The name is not yet in the book and wasn't on the submitted roster (even though in hindsight you said it was).

In the case play the name was entered into the book and the ball became live before discovered by the officials.

You must be reading it wrong. The answers you have been given are correct. See also 3.2.2C(a) -- it's nearly your exact play.

It has nothing to do with when the player enters the game. The player can play the whole game without penalty if no one notices and his name is never added.

ZM1283 -

The infraction IS the adding of the name. NOT entering the game. When the name IS ADDED to the book the infraction HAS OCCURED. Issue the T accordingly.

Looked at it.....thanks.

Okay, I stand corrected.

Do you guys agree that we should have had a CE after it was discovered that V12 was on the roster submitted before the game?

I will agree that before issuing the T you should have done some legwork and request the roster that the visiting team submitted and check if it were a score keeper error. That would have avoided the whole situation to begin with.

Other than that wipe out the points for the free throws as they were un-merited. I can also argue using common sense that this T can be rescinded as this T has reprucussions. The most noticeable is that it is an indirect on the coach.

You can never go wrong going with the book but I will find anyone who would disagree with the T being rescinded (except of course the opposing coach).

No. Under what element would you correct it? It's not an unmerited free throw. You assessed a T therefore it was merited. Your T was maybe unmeritted, but that's not a correctable error. Whether or not V12 was on the roster should have been determined before you issued the T.

Administrative T, team T, no indirect on the coach.

Are you sure about that? Technical fouls assessed under NFHS 10-1 are Team Technicals and not charged to the head coach directly or indirectly. (See also, p 70 of the 2010-11 rule book, Technical Foul Penalty summary.)

yes my brain fart.

So are these unmerited FTs or not? Can they be canceled?

They are and they can.

+1

MRegor is right; once the FTs are shot, the T cannot be rescinded.

Agree....almost. Technically, once the T is reported, it is too late. There is no mechanism for un-calling a foul that has been reported and recorded.

That said, I wouldn't criticize someone who did cancel the T in this case.

So the line of thinking here is since the T was reported, it cannot be corrected as it is not a correctable error. The free throws then are merited as the penalty for the T and therefore cannot be canceled?

If so, it makes sense to me.

Here in Texas, we take the official book to each coach and have them check it and sign it under their list of players. I find it an odd practice, but do it because everyone else does it. If I am told a player from the visiting team is not in the book, I will still ask for the supplied list before assessing a T. The signature really means nothing "officially".

We have some officials in our chapter that do that but I haven't noticed it universally being practiced around our parts. I haven't heard any formal instruction surrounding this either.

Maybe it's a regional thing. I've never heard it described in any meetings as a required practice, but everyone in the Dallas and North Texas chapter seems to do it, so I do as well when I'm the R. They seem to like blowing the whistle to indicate their presence when they enter the floor as well - I still don't do that.

Now this is a common practice around here. Several other Texans on here have said the same for their area.

I haven't found the need to do it yet but I'm not working a whole lot of games with above the rim action at this point.

Different twist
 

Suppose in the OP, the visiting bookkeeper was sitting with the home scorer and V12 comes to table to report. Official book says "I got no V12" and visiting keeper says "Oh, you must have left him off, his name is Bird, Larry" Home book just adds Larry and in he goes. They tell the officials LATER. It's now "discovered", but it's already "occurred".

I would be very, very happy. Play on.

Play on and explain to the home coach that it was his scorer who made the addition without telling us in the proper time frame.

Or tell him that the name was in the visiting scorebook and his scorer failed to copy it down.

An eraser?

I can't think of a better time to trot out 2-3.

Either way, there's no T.

If it's not penalized when the name is added, it's too late to penalize.

There's a case or interp on this.

TEAM TECHNICALS
10.1.2 SITUATION: (a) Three minutes prior to the start of the game; or (b) during a time-out in the second quarter of play, the Team B coach requests the scorer to add a name to the team list or change a team member's number in the scorebook. When is the penalty invoked for this administrative infraction? RULING: The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.

I Hate It When This Happens ...
 

Many administrative infractions can involve the scorebook and rosters. If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name and uniform number must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game. In addition, if a team requires the official scorer to change a team member or player’s uniform number in the official scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Similarly, if a team requires a player to change to a number in the official scorebook after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. A maximum of one team technical foul is charged regardless of the number of players, and substitutes, not wearing the number indicated in the official scorebook. Each player must wear the number indicated in the official scorebook, or change the official scorebook number to that which the player is wearing. Any additional substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the official scorebook will not result in a penalty, as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for this administrative infraction. If there is no request for change, or if the team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Three scorebook situations: adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, and/or having a player change a uniform number, are penalized with a team technical foul when they occur, after the ten minute time limit. These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize. Remember, the ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

After the ten minute time limit a team is charged with a maximum of one technical foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed: changing a designated starter, adding a name to the team member list, requiring the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook, requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook, and/or having identical numbers on team members and/or players. Each player must wear the number indicated in the scorebook, or change the official scorebook number to that the player is wearing. Any additional substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the official scorebook will not result in a penalty, as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for that team’s administrative infraction

Why can you NOT change a foul or uncall a T? We do it on out of bounds all the time. Last year I called a charge because I was straight lined and didnt see the defender push the offensive player into the other defender. My partner just didnt blow a whistle but after I made the call told me what happened. Seemed only right to change from charge to push.

Also couple years ago a head coach had a heart attack in a college game and the officials didnt know what was going on and charged the coach with a T. The NCAA suspended them and said they should have rescinded the T. We can do whatever we please as long as its within the rules and it makes sense.

Here rescinding the T makes perfect sense.

There is a difference between conferring with your partner after a preliminary signal and going back to a foul that was assessed prior to the last live ball. You can only go back to fix correctable errors and this isn't a correctable error.

Rescinding the T would not be within the rules.

Just My Opinion ...
 

Coach requests, and is granted a timeout. Official home scorekeeper states that it is his sixth time out. Official charges team with a technical foul. Before shots are taken, the official home scorekeeper, and the visiting scorekeeper, confer and decide that an error was made in the offcial home scorebook, and that the coach did not use a timeout in excess of the limit.

Call me a fool, but I'm taking back the charged techincal foul.

Sure they should have rescinded it; before the FTs were taken. Your case is the same thing, you changed your call prior to the ball being made live (FT or throwin). Same thing with OOB calls.

Let's use the OOB call here.
You call blue.
Just after blue inbounds, your partner realizes you missed something he saw so he blows his whistle and comes to you saying blue had tipped it last.

Assuming he's right; too bad.

Same thing with your foul scenario; once you shoot the first free throw, it's too late. Even if your partner tells you there was a push or a travel that happened first.
There has to be some cutoff, and the pervasive precedent seems to be once the ball is live, it's too late. The exception seems to be with throwins, once it's completed it's too late. Even then, that would indicate you could correct/rescind the T up until the point where the first free throw is completed (at the absolute latest).

How about after the first FT?

First, I hope the official charged the team, not the coach, with the T.

Second, yes if the free throw has not yet been taken, you're not too late to fix it. If, however, the free throw has been taken, what's done is done.

An interesting question would be if the team would still have a time out left since they paid a T for their 5th timeout.

BILLY - I think your case and the OP are good object lessons in a "slow whistle" I know this usually applies to action on the court but it applies in both of these cases as well. Or you could call it preventative officiating.
In both cases I would make sure that I went to the table and confered with the scorebookS. The scorekeeper from the offending team will most likely have a different opinion in regards to the player or the TO. If they can't agree then I go with the home book, but this would give the home book an opportunity to "revise" their assesment of the situation. It would go a long way to preventing either of these situations. Because if you find yourself in this situation, your bacon is probably cooked regardless of what you do. IT is the archetype for a No Win:
Probable questions asked by your assignor -
Why did you issue a "T" in the first place?
Why did you rescind a "T" if it is not of the CE?
Why did you NOT rescind the "T" when there was no error?

In my very first game ever 2 days ago..we had a scorebook issue as well. Assessed a Technical.

Question: after adding the player to book, is player eligible to play in game??

I would say they do. This situation isn't specifically addressed, so I'd be willing to fall back on 2-3 here.

Why wouldn't he be?

Academically ineligible?:p

Or to steal a quote from Iowa Hawkeye football coach Kirk Ferentz regarding star running back Adam Robinson, "Academic indigestion."

Because he was not listed at the start of the game? Is there a difference between being on the roster eligible to play and being in the scorebook?

No. Once he has been added to the book it is as if his name was included from the start of the game.

The only reason to add him is so he can play. If he doesn't play, there's no need to add him.

Scenario: A15 comes in as a sub but isn't in the book. At the end of the quarter, long after A15 has subbed out (with no points or fouls), the table notifies you of the problem. Coach can decide not to add A15 if he's not going to play him again.

I seem to remember some constipation...I mean consternation surrounding this scenario on this forum.

Thanks for the clarification...one of the tips that my R showed me was to take a headcount of players during pregame and verify with coach that number and compare to the book.

Yup, and do this before the 10 minute mark so you can hopefully get it fixed without having to assess a tech for it. I caught this a couple of weeks ago when I noticed the visiting team was missing a player. Turns out the coach forgot to add her to the roster.

True, let me change it.

A15 reports to the table and the table informs the officials before play begins. Coach then has the opportunity to withdraw A15 prior to participation (perhaps his team has the ball and he desires to add the player to the book when it won't cost him a possession.)

It's part of the case play in 3.2.2 that bob jenkins posted in this thread. Snaqs is right.

So if A15 reports but has not been added yet, as long as the ball doesn't become live the coach does not have to add him yet and can sit him back down and then either add him later or keep him on the bench? Do I have that right?

There Are No Stupid Questions ...
 

Correctable error? Unmerited free throw?

Yep, the question is whether or not any statistical input from A15 (scoring or fouls) changes this.


Yep.

Yup, that's what I was referring to. There was quite a discussion surrounding this not too long ago wasn't there?

Maybe it was a girls game? ;)

Are you guys saying if A15 (not in book) gets in game for a few minutes without fouling or scoring(so as no change was made to book and officials are not notified), goes out, and never returns, there's no penalty that can be enforced?

Yep, 3.2.2C in your casebook.

Note the case play says nothing about whether A25 had scored or not, so an argument can be made that even if A25 fouls or scores, you still can't enforce any penalty.

The penalty for a T is 2 free throws and the ball to the opponent. Since a T was called, even though it was called in error, the free throw is merited.

...have you told the ol' boy you officiated with this?;)

Dueling Administrative Technical Fouls ...
 

If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name and uniform number must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game. If there is no request for change, or if the team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Why can you not? These were unmerited free throws. Wipe them off then rescind the T. Done. And it will be done in my game because it sure as hell is the right thing to do.

They are merited free throws. Free throws are correctly awarded when a T has been called. You can't go back and wipe off a foul after play resumes even if you were wrong to assess it in the first place.

An unmerited free throw is a free throw that is unwarranted based on the foul called. Examples include awarding one and a bonus prior to the offending teams seventh team foul or awarding a second free throw after a missed first throw before the tenth team foul.

Sometimes we kick it. When we do, it's important to understand what we can and cannot fix. While I appreciate your motives, the rules do not allow us to fix this error.

Some think the case play is in error (not unlike the "backcourt interp" we all love to hate.)

Those opposed to the ruling fall back on "the scorer shall keep track of those who enter the game" (or whatever the rule is -- I'm without my books), and for the scorer to do that, s/he'd have to enter the information, even if the student-athlete is not longer in the game.

Based on what rule reference
 

What rule reference that states we can't fix this after the first free throw?

What says we can't rescind a technical foul? Ref passes a glaring coach, as he turns away, he hears "You suck!" He whistles, signals, and reports a technical foul on the coach. His partner then tells him the actual speaker was a fan behind the bench.

Must we shoot then?

Yes. Sent him a text this morning and admitted I was wrong and told him I think I'm still right about the rest of it.

I'm of the thinking that there is no rule that says we can't rescind a T, so if we need to do it, then do it.

Do you see Ts on the list of correctable errors, because I don't.

Correctable errors are not the only things that can be corrected. If you report the wrong number on a foul, then realize it later, that can be corrected any time. In this case, I reported a technical foul when there was none. Correct that. Now the free throws were unwarranted. Wipe them out and let's move on.

If we are to treat a Technical foul as just "another foul" as is preached at several clinics, why would we recind it? Would we recind a "regular" foul b/c you missed it? While it obviously has NEVER happened to me, I have hearrd of officials who have blown a whistle and called a foul that they wish they would not have for various reasons, anticipation, brain fart etc. Do we then recind those calls? What if the "Jumbotron" clearly shows there was no foul, do we take our call back or just eat it and move on?

Taking it out of context
 

You are assuming that I am using 2.10 to fix this. I'm not. I agree it's not a correctable error. However, the T should not have been assessed. In this case the official did set aside a rule just as when we award free throws based on faulty information from the table. The free throws were therefore unmerited although not correctable by 2.10. I say use 2.3 to fix this because this is not directly covered by rule.

Nowhere does the rule book say a T can't be rescinded in this case. The only reference to not rescinding a T is DURING a correctable error, if it involves unmerited free throws or free throws taken by the wrong shooter or at the wrong goal. This does not apply in this case. The T wasn't during a free throw but errorneously caused the free throws to be taken in the first place.

Please site the rule that says a T can't be rescinded.

Sometimes "they" do
 

I too have never done this :), but I've heard of officials whistling a foul but then realizing its not a foul and converting it to an inadvertent whistle. Of course, I've never done that either! :). The fact is this is not directly covered by any rule or case play that I know of. If there is an official interp I don't know about it and even if there is there is a precedent for ignoring official interps on this forum. :) Notice the smiley guys!

Use rule 2.3 to fix this and move on.

And, failing that, "cuz I said so" is always good.

So, it looks like we're all in agreement, then.

Do you agree that there is ever a point that it becomes too late to fix it? If so, when? There has to be some point where it becomes too late.

There are other cases of erroneously called infractions that establish when it is too late to correct the call. For example, a throwin to the wrong team can not be corrected once the ball was thrown in. If you call a travel by mistake and put the ball back in play (throw in ends), it is too late.

You're never going to get the rule/case book to detail every possibility. You have to use the rules/cases you've got to derive the answer. 2.3 is not an option when we've got cases that already cover when it is too late to correct an incorrectly called infraction.

Basically, once "recordable" game action has occurred, you can only correct bookkeeping errors (until the score is approved) or correctable errors (within their defined limits). By recordable game action, I'm referring to the clock starting or a FT being taken. So, once you administer the FT, you've already moved on and there is nothing you can do.

Is there a case which deals with anything close to this?

Official calls improper technical due to erroneous information from the scorer.

As you say, everything cannot be covered in the books. Sometimes you just have to do something because it makes sense.
I would probably rescind the T at any time this information was brought to my attention. The free throws are covered by rule.

We have the general throwin case where the wrong team is given the ball...it is too late once the ball is touched inbounds (clock starts).

I think we also have a case where an AP situation is administered by giving the wrong team the ball...either due to erroneous info from the scorer or the officials just not heeding the information provided. Once the ball is inbounds, it is too late.

Is there ANY case that covers removing a reported foul from the book? Or for that matter, is there ANY case that involves canceling an infraction (violation or foul) after it has called and penalized? No, there is the opposite....once the ball is in play, it is too late.

So, we have 1-2 cases that declare it too late to fix a mistake once the ball is in play and we have 0 that support canceling an infraction after the ball has been put in play.

I'd say the onus is upon those that say you can, by rule, wipe a reported and penalized foul away to provide something other than 2.3 to support that claim.

I'm aware that until it is penalized, you can declare an inadvertent whistle...but once you administer the penalty (i.e., a throw-in completed or free throw taken, there is no going back).

If I find out after the fact that I'm improperly called a T that resulted in an indirect on the coach, I would be inclined to reinstate his coaching box, but not wipe the T.

Your only choice of rules to go back and correct prior activity is 2-10. 2-10 provides a finite list of correctable errors. Assessing fouls is not on that list. You cannot use 2-3 as your authority because correcting errors is a point specifically covered in the rules.

Beyond that, by your own admission, you can't wave off a T that occurred when there was a correctable error. So why then would it be acceptable to wave it off when there wasn't a correctable error? You defeated your own argument there.

Not applicable
 

Nothing you have quoted here is applicable. This is not a throw-in. Those cases don't apply. You can't take one rule that covers one scenario and then use it in a different scenario. We have rule 2.3 cover scenarios such as this. And if you can't wipe out the T you can't restore the coaching box.

Do you have a rule that specifically covers this exact scenario?

No I haven't.
 

The only time the rule book says you can't wipe out a T is during a correctable error. Period! End of story! This is not a correctable error by rule and therefore those examples don't apply.

Quote me the rule that says you can't wipe out a T that was wrongfully administered? There is nothing that covers this exact scenario. The use of rule 2.3 is justified.

Wow. Exactly. It's not a correctable error so it can't be corrected. Glad you agree with me.

You can't use 2-3 when something is covered by another rule. Which errors can be corrected is covered by 2-10.

No this is not covered
 

No you are agreeing with me. You agree this is not a correctable error therefore rule 2.10 doesn't apply. Yet you have failed to show me the rule that says categorically that a T can't be wiped out. Since this situation doesn't fit the description of rule 2.10 we can't use it but there are other rules other than 2.10. This scenario is not covered by any rule, therefore, 2.3 is applicable.

What would happen if you called the T and where lining up to shoot the free throws but before the first three throw is taken the table buzzes you over? They found the original roster handed in by the coach. It had the player on the roster and the scorer just failed to copy it down.

What are you going to do?

+1

So, by your reading of 2-10, I can in the 4th quarter go back and assess a non-shooting foul from the 1st quarter that I just now realized I missed because you know 2-10 doesn't cover that situation so it can be corrected any time? No, 2-10 lists the only instances we can correct were an official has made an error by setting aside a rule. If it isn't there it can't be fixed.

If we have not restarted the game by making the ball live, we have not yet committed an error.

No of course not
 

All I am asking is for you to show me the rule that says you can't wipe out the T. You haven't yet! This is not covered by rule 2.10. There are other things we correct that is not listed under 2-10. You call a foul on number 13. You report it. We line up to shoot two free throws. The two free throws have been shot and the ball is out of bounds. The table buzzes you over. There is no 13 on the floor. There is a 31. You realized you called it on the wrong player. This is not a correctable error. So you can't change it by your reading of 2.10. No where in the rule book does it say we can now change the foul to number 31, but we do because it is the right thing to do.

I have. 2-10 covers correctable errors. I'm getting tired of hearing the squishy sound as I beat my head on this particular brick wall so I'll let you continue to pretend that you can correct anything you want when ever you want so long as it's not listed in 2-10.

Wow!
 

We are having a friendly debate and then you resort to this! WOW!

No. I've had this scenario, but where the person who stated "that was a crappy call" was one of the officials for the next game sitting behind the coach.
The difference was the T was rescinded before any FTs were shot.
Let me ask this. Is there any action that the rules say can be taken back after the penalty has been enforced? No, there's not.

Before the first FT is shot? I'll cancel it. After the FT? Too late.

Not going to read all 6.5 pages of this thread, so maybe this was already brought up...wouldn't the incorrect information given by the official scorekeeper be considered a bookkeeping error? And are we not allowed to correct those at any time?

If the table gives us bad information, we need to rectify that - otherwise we will have table crews start doing that sort of thing all the time.

Rule reference please

Where's yours? My point is simple, and Camron made it well too.

There has to be a limit on how far back you can go to rescind a T. Otherwise, are you suggesting you can go back and correct it two minutes later if that's when the table tells you they messed up?

Every single example of corrected infractions and mistakes in the book (aside from 2-10) tells you it ends once the throwin is complete. See Camron's posts.

I seem to remember an interp that said it was too late, but I'm not positive about that.