These two situations are completely different. In the case play, the coach erred. In your situation, the scorer erred. One causes a technical foul, the other causes embarrassment.

No, going by his posting history he is that clueless. And you can't tell him anything because he just doesn't comprehend what you're telling him. Why expect anything different from him?

Ya know, I never considered that........

THAT I considered!

NFHS rule 10-1-1- "A team shall not fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate...at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time."

NFHS rule 10-1-2(b)- "After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1: add a name to the team list."

Chseagle, you're looking at the wrong rule. Did the team supply the scorer with a list that included player #13 as required under R10-1-1? Yes! Did the scorer have to add a name to the team list that was given to him? No! What you want us to do is assess a penalty under rule 10-1-2(b) for a team failing to comply with rule 10-1-1. We can't do that because at no time was there a violation of rule 10-1-1. The team DID supply a correct team list that included player #13, and did so in a timely fashion. And you can't give a team a "T" for adding a name to a team list when that name was already on their team list.

The scorer screwed up, not the team. And any know-nothing timer that tries to involve themself in a situation that they simply do not understand should be banished from the kingdom.

Now......enough is enough and too much is plenty. Zip it!

No you don't HTBT. BktBallRef described it all in sufficient detail.

You highlighted the wrong part. The key word is "Providing". The team complied with that.

Otherwise, an unscrupulous home scorer could "forget" to add a name or two, or mark down the wrong starters and give his/her team an advantage.

I had a partner ask me last night during warmups how "strict" I was about having all the names in the book by 10 minutes. I "reminded" him that the rule does not require having all the names in the book; it requires that the team provide the scorers with a roster.

He said, "Oh, that's right." ;)

And this part cannot be overstated: Even if there is no list submitted at all, it is not any part of the timer's job to do or say anything.

Like I stated it was my understanding of the rules, as I am used to the rosters having to be in the scorebook by the 10:00 minute mark, not just a printed list outside the scorebook.

It goes to show you differences in areas & training in positions.

Of course I know it's never ALWAYS going to happen for the Sub-V games where I've had my training as scorer. However I have done my share of table operations for V games & have seen it happen before & have been to enough V games as either bench personnel/security/table to have seen it happen that a player is "accidently" forgotten to be listed yet an administrative T has still been called.

As stated before I have, as has my wife, seen it called as a Technical before as not always are printed rosters correct as to names/numbers or a printed roster is not supplied to the scorer.

You May Think It's So, But It Ain't About You ..
 

And it ain't even about us.

chseagle: Check out page seven of the NFHS rulebook. It doesn't have a number on it, but it's still a rule, a very important rule: "It is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation."

One intent and purpose of the "ten minute rule" is to ensure that rosters are written in the scorebooks before the game starts, so that we're not holding up the jump ball to start the game while the table is copying names, and numbers, into their respective scorebooks. Another intent and purpose is so that we don't have to hold up the game after the game starts to add a players name, and number, into the book. Officials, players, coaches, and fans want the kids play basketball, they don't want to watch scorekeepers making additions, or corrections, in the scorebook. And they certainly don't want to watch us officiating a free throw contest before clock actually starts.

I've been doing this for thirty years. Do you know how many times the book hasn't been "ready" at the ten minute mark? If I got a dollar every time it happened, I could buy a round, or two, of adult beverages after the game for all my pals. Do you know how many technical fouls I've seen charged for the book not being "ready" at the ten minute mark? None. I've officiated over 700 high school games, and, probably, three, or four times, as many lower level games. Do you know how many games I've started with something other than a jump ball? None.

As an official, you just don't want to start the game with "administrative" free throws. Officials will always bend over backwards to work with coaches, and the table crew, within the intent and purpose of the rules, to start the game with a jump ball, the way, God, and Dr. Naismith, intended it. In thirty years, I have found all head coaches, and all table crew members, to fully agree with me.

Now, would someone please help me down from this soapbox. I'm getting dizzy up here.

Quick, How Do You Work This Edit Function ???
 

Wait a minute? Did I really post this? Wow. Sometimes chseagle can really get me worked up. Maybe the soapbox was way too high, and the lack of oxygen at that altitude effected my brain, and confused me?

Finally a constructive "non-condescending" answer/

All I have been doing is mentioning my understanding of rules & yet almost everyone that responds is trying to turn my a$$ into the grand canyon with no rhyme/reason except to exert their manhood where it does not belong.

Like stated a million times before (over-exaggerated) I am wanting to learn the proper meanings/reasonings behind the rules, yet majority of the time instead of politely explaining the proper use/meaning of the rule I am being fed to the wolves for just asking for clarifications.

Sorry to say this but almost everyone on here miserably fails as teachers as cannot calmly explain with rational thinking how/why a rule is written compared to how it is understood.

BillyMac, your soapbox (to me) was only about 1-2 feet off the ground.

And we've given you clarification. Your understanding is wrong.

The coach is required to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate. (10-1-1)

The coach did that. The fact that both scorers failed to write #13's name in their books is a bookkeeping error. Therefore, the team is NOT penalized.

I'm used to the fact that 10-1-1 means all names/numbers are listed in the scorebook, as that is what I am used to is all I was getting at.

It is that I was thinking the intent & purpose is different compared to what is the norm concerning what I have witnessed/experienced.

Unfortunately different people see the purpose & intent differently :eek:

Maybe if you just accepted the damn answers that are being given to you by some very knowledgable officials instead of trying to argue with them when you don't have the knowledge to do so, we might have a little more patience with you. As it stands right now though, all you are doing is making yourself a big pain in our collective asses because your understanding of even the basic rules is almost non-existent.

You were given the correct meaning of this particular rule as well as the reasoning behind it. Instead of saying "thank you", instead you insisted on arguing that everybody was wrong.

It ain't a matter of us failing as teachers, chseagle. It's a case of you failing miserably as a student.

Sorry but there it is....like it or not.

The intent and purpose is that the coach provide the scorer a team list prior to the 10 minute mark, not that the book be completed prior to the 10 minute mark.

Fortunately, it makes no difference what a timer sees as the intent and purpose of the rule. It is not any part of the timer's job to do or say anything.