How do you cover this?

[Back In The Saddle]

Had a play in a VG game tonight, two person crew, that I'm left wondering what is the proper way to cover. Here's what happened...

I'm trail. Ball is deep in the L's corner, and he has gone out to the three point line to cover the matchup. I stretch and pick up L's post as my secondary area. The post defender has her knee up the offensive player's backside and is trying to move her off her spot. It's not quite enough that I would whistle a foul, but she's definitely got my attention. Right then several things happen all about the same time: an entry pass comes from the corner to the post, just before the pass arrives the defender bumps the offensive player enough that she stumbles as she catches the ball, my partner who had been wide closes down and turns into the play, my partner has an immediate whistle. The problem is he has a travel.

Compounding that, a play or two later we have a foul on the team that got hit with the travel on the baseline at the other end. Aside from there being no travel involved, it is a very similar play. The coach comments to me on the seeming inconsistency. He's absolutely right.

So here's my question...what should I have done with the original play?
A) Come with a quick whistle as soon as the bump happens and it appears that my partner has not completely turned to pick up the play
B) Have a patient whistle, double with my partner, as soon as I see he has an open hand come in hard and "share information" with him
C) Withhold my whistle since my partner has turned to pick up the play, even though he's coming to the play late (I would add "and obviously hasn't seen what preceded the travel, but at the moment the decision has to be made there's no way to be sure what he has or has not seen).
D) Do something else entirely

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Had a play in a VG game tonight, two person crew, that I'm left wondering what is the proper way to cover. Here's what happened...

I'm trail. Ball is deep in the L's corner, and he has gone out to the three point line to cover the matchup. I stretch and pick up L's post as my secondary area. The post defender has her knee up the offensive player's backside and is trying to move her off her spot. It's not quite enough that I would whistle a foul, but she's definitely got my attention. Right then several things happen all about the same time: an entry pass comes from the corner to the post, just before the pass arrives the defender bumps the offensive player enough that she stumbles as she catches the ball, my partner who had been wide closes down and turns into the play, my partner has an immediate whistle. The problem is he has a travel.

Compounding that, a play or two later we have a foul on the team that got hit with the travel on the baseline at the other end. Aside from there being no travel involved, it is a very similar play. The coach comments to me on the seeming inconsistency. He's absolutely right.

So here's my question...what should I have done with the original play?
A) Come with a quick whistle as soon as the bump happens and it appears that my partner has not completely turned to pick up the play
B) Have a patient whistle, double with my partner, as soon as I see he has an open hand come in hard and "share information" with him
C) Withhold my whistle since my partner has turned to pick up the play, even though he's coming to the play late (I would add "and obviously hasn't seen what preceded the travel, but at the moment the decision has to be made there's no way to be sure what he has or has not seen).
D) Do something else entirely

(A). There's no way that a partner can get in there early enough to see what you saw and I,for one, would be grateful that you saved my butt on a play where I didn't see the entire thing.

Others mileage may vary. But in 2-person sometimes you have to stretch your look when your partner is on ball.

[APG]

I'd go with option A...especially in two-man. No way your partner could of seen the contact that preceded the pass and travel.

[Camron Rust]

You might not want to have A as the contact, as you described it, wasn't enough for a foul on its own until it caused the travel.

D) Have a patient whistle, double with partner, as soon as I see he has an open hand come in hard and take the call since you know the foul caused the travel....and state that the foul caused the travel.

[biggravy]

Another good example of 'why I hate two man'. FWIW, our two biggest leagues switched back to 2 man this year after a decade of 3. I am banging my head against the wall over this. We get to playoffs, and the state mandates 3 whistle. The game changes totally and coaches hate it.

Anyway, back on topic: I vote for a B/D combo. I am doubling with my partner and coming hard so we get the call RIGHT. A big part of being able to work two man effectively is recognizing the deficiencies of not having three and being alert for situations like this. When the ball goes to L's corner, I am finding a look through my primary and into the post. I'm also trying to keep that look while taking two steps down to be closer to the play. I'm moving even closer when I hit my whistle so by the time the play is stopped it appears I am right on top of it for game management purposes.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Double with partner, as soon as I see he has an open hand come in hard and take the call since you know the foul caused the travel, and state that the foul caused the travel.

Sounds like a good plan.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

The post defender has her knee up the offensive player's backside and is trying to move her off her spot. It's not quite enough that I would whistle a foul, but she's definitely got my attention.

It's enough that I would call the foul, from that description. That's exactly what the FED has been trying to get us to do through numerous, almost yearly POE's.

But that's just me.

[CaRef5]

probably go with B. definitely share information with your partner.

the goal is to get the play right, not what was easier to call (travelling your partner had, most likely, to get the game going)


I could see how you let the initial contact slide though.

[bob jenkins]

If the foul caused the travel, then you need to get the foul.

I think that's mostly option B

[BBrules]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's enough that I would call the foul, from that description. That's exactly what the FED has been trying to get us to do through numerous, almost yearly POE's.

But that's just me.

+1 It would have also shortstopped all the consternation that happened afterward.

[rockyroad]

If the post defender "has your attention" and then fouls the offensive post player, why would you not have a whistle and a foul? Once your L went out on the ball, you are responsible for the post play. Blow your whistle and make the foul call.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

If the post defender "has your attention" and then fouls the offensive post player, why would you not have a whistle and a foul? Once your L went out on the ball, you are responsible for the post play. Blow your whistle and make the foul call.

This is a very good question. There are two reasons I didn't have a whistle, and why I'm still questioning whether I should have a whistle on this.

First, the contact I considered a foul happened at the end of the play. By then my partner was turning into the play and had an immediate whistle. One of the basic tenets I subscribe to for calling in my secondary is: be right, be needed, be late. So my initial reaction is to hold my whistle for half a beat so my partner has first crack at it (since it's his primary). I didn't discover that he had something other than the foul until he was signalling the travel.

Second, the way the play unfolded. I would have had to make a call from trail on a play that was perceived to be right in front of my partner. I would be perceived to be "overruling" my partner. Right or wrong, that's a very slippery slope. And most of the folks I've asked locally about this play have basically said that, in their opinion, you have to let your partner live or die with his call because of this.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's enough that I would call the foul, from that description. That's exactly what the FED has been trying to get us to do through numerous, almost yearly POE's.

But that's just me.

Originally Posted by BBrules

+1 It would have also shortstopped all the consternation that happened afterward.

It's hard to argue with this.

[Back In The Saddle]

It seems to me that this question really is applicable to any situation where an official has a play in his secondary where his partner, whose primary it is, comes late to the play. And in NCAA-W mechanics, you can have this exact play even with three person.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's enough that I would call the foul, from that description. That's exactly what the FED has been trying to get us to do through numerous, almost yearly POE's.

But that's just me.

It's why I said (A). I have a foul before that ball gets in there.

I've been working hard in the early season to clean up post play and screening. I had 4 illegal screens against one team in one half in a boys game last week and the coach could only tell his players to clean it up, that it was obvious I was going to call it.

A knee in the butt is a foul. I'll talk once if I'm the L. If I'm the T picking up secondary coverage and there's a hold or a knee in the butt, I'm calling a foul.