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Sat Mar 25, 2000, 01:43am
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Regarding the original post. I asked a veteran official (friend of mine) about this game situation (St. John's vs. ?????). I was told that this was a result of two big "EGO'S" at work. Certainly, it is possible for the lead and center to have a simultaneous whistle however, the advice I was given was that if I'm the 'C', I should go in ONLY with my fist and ask the lead "What do you have?" If he/she says "Charge" then I say "Me too" and forget about my ideas of signalling a block. Is this accurate advice? Let me know. I'm a first year official.
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Sat Mar 25, 2000, 03:21am
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I do not recall what teams were playing but this happened in the NCAA tournament. Their was a double whistle the lead called a BLOCK and the center called a CHARGE, the referee's got together and came out with a DOUBLE FOUL and the game went on from there. Well i have never seen anything quite like that happen in any game. Did anyone see that game and if you did who played and who refereed.
Thanks for the feedback! ------------------ Don
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Sat Mar 25, 2000, 06:35am
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Don,
I believe one of the officials was Ted Valentine but I can't recall the other officials name. That is one where basically one official won't give into the other. It happens alot in the NCAA tournament when you get alot of the top "bigwigs" from different conferences that come together and work in the tournament with their egos close behind them. It happened just below the free throw line, and the paint was pretty congested from what I remember. I thought it was a C call all the way. It seems we have alot of leads with wandering eyes in the tournament this year. (hack call from lead in tenessee/louisiana game where action was at the free throw line extended at the three point line)
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Sat Mar 25, 2000, 12:15pm
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How about the one last night where the lead waved off the basket for clock violation. Turns out it wasn't a violation. It was close. The ball was in the leads primary. I've always been told to try not to take points off the board, unless you are 110% sure. I don't have a problem with the call sense it was his primary. Also reviewing the monitor on last sec. shot of Half time. I thought it was only at end of regulation or overtime. They did it at end of half, does the rule include end of half?
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Sat Mar 25, 2000, 02:24pm
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Thanks Guy's, i have been refereeing 21 years and never saw that one! I only have regular TV, cable would cost about $60 a month and i am out refereeing most time.
Doghead, i like you learned that on a double whistle you get together befor making the signal and talk it over, the lead take's it when it's comming to the lead. A D-1 told me that he would grab the back of his leg when he had a call in the center position and that would not allow him to signal, and now most referees at the collage level will signal the foul and then point to the offender! Thanks and Good Luck to you all. ------------------ Don
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Sat Mar 25, 2000, 03:34pm
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I have heard of the situation where a block and a charge have been called on the same play. Frankly, I don't know how that can be done according to the rules (NF). We discussed this at our association last season and we agreed that it must be one or the other.
The two calls are mutually exclusive. Either the defender fulfilled the requirements for taking the charge or he didn't. If he did, it's a charge - if he didn't, it's a block. Imagine what the game would be like if you could do this (allowing both calls to stand on one play) on shooting foul/clean block, shooting foul/shooter clearing out with arm, etc. One alternative is to use the "Richie Powers" call. Richie was a long-time NBA ref who used to get out of the controversy of whether a foul was a block or a charge by calling a travel. That way, each team didn't feel so outraged at the whistle. Bottom line - this is NOT what coaches mean when they yell "Call it both ways"  [This message has been edited by Mark Padgett (edited March 25, 2000).]
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Mon Mar 27, 2000, 09:40am
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quote: Egos notwithstanding, if two officials come up with different foul calls simultaneously on the same play (one signaling block and one signaling player control), the mechanic according to the rules is to call a double foul. Agreed that it shouldn't happen, and that one guy should have a fist without signaling anything yet, but if it DOES happen, that's the prescribed mechanic. It's not really a matter of one guy needing to "give in" to the other, since they both made a strong call (i.e., they "sold" the call). So, in the original post, it sounds like the officials did what they were supposed to do after they made the gaffe of both signaling differently.
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Mon Mar 27, 2000, 05:25pm
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Well stated Todd. Didn't we just talk about this in thread a couple of months back?
Think about it people...what would you do if you had a easy block call in your primary, and your partner comes in with a charge? If you choose to only take one of the calls, someone's gonna have some 'splaining do to to the coach that doesn't "get" the call. What would you tell them? Mark- I agree with you in principle, just like how tie goes to the runner in baseball. However, when the BLARGE happens (and it does happen) how would you get your partner to acquiese his/her call? Tuff situation. Walk would be great...if you have the presence of mind to signal it before your fist goes up. Otherwise, it would really look like a contrived bail-out call (2 officials with foul signals, discuss, then come out with a travel? Can you say "do over"?!). IMHO, double foul it, and get on with the game. Then, post-game, reflect on the benefits of holding your whistle. My fav pre-game quip from the R: "Don't make any calls that I can't explain"
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Mon Mar 27, 2000, 05:42pm
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quote: It happened in the Iowa St vs. Michigan St game also, double foul which is the best call,not popular but best.
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Mon Mar 27, 2000, 05:47pm
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OK Richard, after seeing the replay, how would you call it?
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Mon Mar 27, 2000, 10:25pm
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I think tha the officials should have come together to discuss the call before signaling anything. They had no choice, but to call a double foul because they did not take the time to see if someone else had something. You have to do that even if everyone in the gym is yelling and it is the end of the game. It prevents bad things from happening like a double foul when it was not.
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Tue Mar 28, 2000, 01:00am
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Not popular, but the right call. The lead official never even thought about making any kind of eye contact before he came charging from the lead position with the player control foul. TV did not give as good as a look to the "C".
To rookies and vets, don't forget this. Once a little experience is under your belt, it takes only a fraction of a second to look up and make a decision on your call. The lead got caught up in this case and "forgot" to look up when he made the call. I hated the double foul, but it was the ONLY thing you can do in this situation. I've seen it only 2 or 3 times in 12 years of officiating. (looked like a block all the way to me.....on the replay)
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Tue Mar 28, 2000, 01:19am
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eye contact is crucial in these situations, these guys are highly trained professionals and i would never second guess them. this has happened to me before when there is a double whistle i automatically make eye contact fist high with no signal too see what my partners call is especially if hes closer to the play, weve all heard it look,see,wait then call. we are all officials and we have too work together out there even if it does mean eating your whistle on one. if i was the head referee we would have conferenced and the call would have been a charge it was obvious the lead had the better call and was in perfect position.
tim
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Tue Mar 28, 2000, 10:12am
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Yes, i agree it was a block and the C had the better look. Sense the ball came from the L primary, he followed the ball and didn't get a look at the whole play. I think this was a critical play going against Iowa St.
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Tue Mar 28, 2000, 06:20pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Padgett:
[B]I have heard of the situation where a block and a charge have been called on the same play. Frankly, I don't know how that can be done according to the rules (NF). We discussed this at our association last season and we agreed that it must be one or the other. The two calls are mutually exclusive. Either the defender fulfilled the requirements for taking the charge or he didn't. If he did, it's a charge - if he didn't, it's a block. I agree with Mark. There are many instances where a double foul can be called, but not here. It makes no sense. If you call the offensive player for a player control foul then the defensive player CAN NOT commit a simultaneous block, and vica versa. I know this is an easy way out, and it looks good on TV and to the uninformed fans, but in this case one or the other HAS to be called for the foul. I think thye should have gotten together and decided for sure one way or the other. The heat will be on regardless of the outcome, so get it right.
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