when to let it go?

[johnsonboys03]

I officiated a scrimage game tonight with 6 other officials. We rotated in and things were going fairly good. While I was rotated out I mentioned a situation of travelling. They didn't agree with me. How far should I argue (me being a second year man, and them 5+yr vets)? The topic in question was I mentioned that if you pick up your pivot before you start a dribble it is travelling. They were saying your allowed to pick it up just not put it back down. I tried to explain that on a pass or shot attempt they are correct but not to start a dribble. Advice please!

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

I officiated a scrimage game tonight with 6 other officials. We rotated in and things were going fairly good. While I was rotated out I mentioned a situation of travelling. They didn't agree with me. How far should I argue (me being a second year man, and them 5+yr vets)? The topic in question was I mentioned that if you pick up your pivot before you start a dribble it is travelling. They were saying your allowed to pick it up just not put it back down. I tried to explain that on a pass or shot attempt they are correct but not to start a dribble. Advice please!

If they're convinced they're right, you probably aren't going to change their minds. If you get a chance to point out the passage in the book, you might want to do so, just play it by ear. In the meantime, don't let them intimidate you into not making the right call.

[deecee]

The best way to handle this is to just zip it. when you get home send them an email and cite the rule and case book play. if they want to argue the loosing battle wrong then they aren't just wrong but also competley stupid.

[BillyMac]

The traveling rule is one of the most misunderstood rules in basketball. To start a dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted. On a pass or a shot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released.

[grunewar]

As has been stated - tell them what you saw, tell them what you believe/know the rule to be and have your say. Then, be done with it and move on.

What's that old expression, "Never argue with an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and beat you with experience."

I'm not saying they're idiots, but I find some vets/trainers "don't want to listen or g_d forbid, admit they're wrong even if you show em in the book. Shrug.

Have your say, know you're right, and move on.

PS - took me a while to learn to shut up.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

I officiated a scrimage game tonight with 6 other officials. We rotated in and things were going fairly good. While I was rotated out I mentioned a situation of travelling. They didn't agree with me. How far should I argue (me being a second year man, and them 5+yr vets)? The topic in question was I mentioned that if you pick up your pivot before you start a dribble it is travelling. They were saying your allowed to pick it up just not put it back down. I tried to explain that on a pass or shot attempt they are correct but not to start a dribble. Advice please!

During scrimmages I always have my rulebook nearby because that's when we should be discussing rules and mechanics with each other.

And there is no way I can believe that entire group of 5+ year veterans wouldn't know this basic rule.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

The best way to handle this is to just zip it. when you get home send them an email and cite the rule and case book play. if they want to argue the loosing battle wrong then they aren't just wrong but also competley stupid.

I would advise against this, personally. Send an email to your association's rules guru; to the effect of, "I was discussing a play with some local veterans and we had a disagreement. According to 4-44-4b, I think... but they were saying.... Can you verify for me how this should be called?"

If you don't have a rules guru, go to the assigner. If there's no assigner, give it up.

Whatever you do, don't name names or throw any of the vets under the bus. Best case scenario, the rules guy gives a clinic at your next meeting. Worst case, nothing happens.

[johnsonboys03]

I was surprised that they all were lost in this issue as well...but thank you everyone for your advise. I just recieved my case book in the mail so I will be highlighting somethings for this weeks meeting. I wont make an issue out of it but just make sure our chapter president understands the confusion within the chapter.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by johnsonboys03

(me being a second year man, and them 5+yr vets)?

As a rule of thumb, motivated 2nd year officials know the letter of the rule(s) better than a large percentage of the vets.

I expect you will encounter this type of situation many times this season.

Take it for what it is. In the above sitch, its not a big deal. Think through, though, how you are going to handle some key point in a game this season, when things are on the line, and your more veteran partners are poised to go the wrong direction. (going A/P when it should be team last in control, or somesuch) How are you going to successfully slow things down, discuss, and 'get the play right'. Its gonna happen, so prepare for it.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I would advise against this, personally. Send an email to your association's rules guru; to the effect of, "I was discussing a play with some local veterans and we had a disagreement. According to 4-44-4b, I think... but they were saying.... Can you verify for me how this should be called?"

If you don't have a rules guru, go to the assigner. If there's no assigner, give it up.

Whatever you do, don't name names or throw any of the vets under the bus. Best case scenario, the rules guy gives a clinic at your next meeting. Worst case, nothing happens.

Snaq I don't recall saying throw anyone under the bus. I said email the guy you had the discussion with and send him the rules citation. I dont think this is one of those ambiguous situations where you need to go asking someone else for help. you cite the facts and move on. why involve someone else in this if its black and white. if they dont accept the facts as is when you present them then its not going to matter if the pope shows up and tells them the same thing.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

Snaq I don't recall saying throw anyone under the bus. I said email the guy you had the discussion with and send him the rules citation. I dont think this is one of those ambiguous situations where you need to go asking someone else for help. you cite the facts and move on. why involve someone else in this if its black and white. if they dont accept the facts as is when you present them then its not going to matter if the pope shows up and tells them the same thing.

I never said you would do that; it was just a caveat to my suggestion. Read the post before you take it personally.

Now, I'll address your post further. If the guy wasn't willing to listen to you at the game, he's not going to accept your rules citation. Not if he doesn't know this basic rule. Extending the discussion to email makes you look petty, IMO. I'd let it go as soon as the car was started.

If you want to find a way to get to them, getting the association leadership to address it in a meeting is far better than sending them an "i can't let this go" email.

[deecee]

Snaq, we can disagree on this its ok. because i dont think its petty. usually when yo uhave a rules discuusion at a site unless you have your rule book on you its just conjecture and hearsay. i dont see why someone would still disagree when facts are presented to them.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

The best way to handle this is to just zip it. when you get home send them an email and cite the rule and case book play. if they want to argue the loosing battle wrong then they aren't just wrong but also competley stupid.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I would advise against this, personally. ....

I'm with deecee on this one. If you can't send a simple email with a rules citatation to your colleagues without fear of some sort blowback or retribution then there is seriously something wrong.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm with deecee on this one. If you can't send a simple email with a rules citatation to your colleagues without fear of some sort blowback or retribution then there is seriously something wrong.

I guess my assumption is that something is already seriously wrong with veteran officials getting this basic play wrong. I will back off and say, depending on how exactly the conversation went and how open you think the veterans are to correction, you could use deecee's response.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I guess my assumption is that something is already seriously wrong with veteran officials getting this basic play wrong. I will back off and say, depending on how exactly the conversation went and how open you think the veterans are to correction, you could use deecee's response.

I guess my caveat is that I only have these types of discussions in the first place with people who I can trust to have open/candid conversations. I don't even get involved in officiating conversations with people whom I'm not cool with. (except on the internet )