Five second responsibility

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

KISS.

Unless you have a very specific mandate or use a variation of regular mechanics, then the C and T are the only ones that have a closely guarded count. They keep the count until the count stops even if that count goes to someone else's area. That is pretty standard in 3 Person, but that might not apply everywhere. Just telling you what I know and what is normal.

Peace

NFHS manual says that the official that has primary coverage is responsible for the five second count. 3.3.2 B.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

NFHS manual says that the official that has primary coverage is responsible for the five second count. 3.3.2 B.

Glad we do not use them anymore then. That would be stupid in my opinion to have the Lead calling a closely guarded call that moves away from them.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Glad we do not use them anymore then. That would be stupid in my opinion to have the Lead calling a closely guarded call that moves away from them.

Peace

It's no more stupid than having the C or T stay with a count on a play that moves away from them. Though I will say that the situation just doesn't happen very often.

I've had it happen to me as L that I began a 5 second count and the play moved away from me and out of my area. I dropped my count because I'd never seen the L follow a count out of his area. But had I kept my count, it clearly would have been a five second violation.

I talked to several officials I trust in the days following about what I should have done. The majority opinion was that "because nobody does that" is a pretty weak rationale for not making an obvious call. I agree. The next time that happens, I will stay with the play and make the call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

It's no more stupid than having the C or T stay with a count on a play that moves away from them. Though I will say that the situation just doesn't happen very often.

I disagree. Five seconds is not that long and you have a much better angle. The Lead in 3 Person all of a sudden has to make a call that is likely going away from them and likely straight lined on such a call.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I disagree. Five seconds is not that long and you have a much better angle. The Lead in 3 Person all of a sudden has to make a call that is likely going away from them and likely straight lined on such a call.

Peace

I do believe this is the first time I've ever heard the notion of being straight-lined brought up in a discussion about five seconds/closely guarded.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I do believe this is the first time I've ever heard the notion of being straight-lined brought up in a discussion about five seconds/closely guarded.

Agreed, although if you were straight-lined, you might not know whether the defender was within 6 feet. I don't know that it's any more likely for lead to have this problem than C or T, or that it's more difficult to fix.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Agreed, although if you were straight-lined, you might not know whether the defender was within 6 feet. I don't know that it's any more likely for lead to have this problem than C or T, or that it's more difficult to fix.

Yep. As far as I can tell, the argument for the L not having a 5 second count consists mostly of ... "nobody does it". I can see that a 5 second call on a post up on the block would be quite unexpected, and that would get you some grief. I can see that it would be difficult to maintain both a 3 second and a 5 second count on the same player. But nobody seems to be making those arguments (well, I guess "unexpected" is related to "nobody does that").

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

KISS.

Unless you have a very specific mandate or use a variation of regular mechanics, then the C and T are the only ones that have a closely guarded count. They keep the count until the count stops even if that count goes to someone else's area. That is pretty standard in 3 Person, but that might not apply everywhere. Just telling you what I know and what is normal.

Peace

Originally Posted by Indianaref

NFHS manual says that the official that has primary coverage is responsible for the five second count. 3.3.2 B.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Glad we do not use them anymore then. That would be stupid in my opinion to have the Lead calling a closely guarded call that moves away from them.

Peace

Rut, it's clear that your area is the one using a "very specific mandate" that deviates from the norm, and you're aware of it. So, I have to ask why you would answer a test-based question with how you are taught?

Now, if you're referring to the initial count continuing with that official until it terminates, I was under the impression that it's the normal procedure. It's how I was taught in Iowa, and how it's done in Colorado.

But as this discussion continued, it seems you're talking about all 5 second counts that begin in the L's primary.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rut, it's clear that your area is the one using a "very specific mandate" that deviates from the norm, and you're aware of it. So, I have to ask why you would answer a test-based question with how you are taught?

I am not so sure that what my state does is so different from the "norm." You assume that every state follows the NF to the letter on many things. If I have learned anything from this board I have learned that a lot of areas do things contrary to the NF Mechanics. If that was not the case then we would only see black and white shirts (from NF members) and always see consistent mechanics. At this point we do not see that consistently.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Now, if you're referring to the initial count continuing with that official until it terminates, I was under the impression that it's the normal procedure. It's how I was taught in Iowa, and how it's done in Colorado.

But as this discussion continued, it seems you're talking about all 5 second counts that begin in the L's primary.

I have said that it looks stupid to have the lead call a closely guarded play in the area. For one the player likely is not going to be in that area very long. Also the player likely did not start in that area either. And I would not like to see a Lead be so focused on the ball when other things are going on there. If you disagree that is OK, but to just blindly say that is the way it should be done is ridiculous. There are a lot of things the NF does that everyone does not agree with. This was not the case until Mary Struckoff tried to implement the NCAA-W philosophy into the high school game. That might work in that game but does not work as well in my opinion at the high school level when the rules are not the same.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not so sure that what my state does is so different from the "norm." You assume that every state follows the NF to the letter on many things.

No, I assume either the majority of states (26) or the majority of officials use the NF to the letter on this particular issue. I certainly could be wrong, but that's really not my point here.
He asked the question in the context of a test, which I assume is based on NFHS mechanics.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, I assume either the majority of states (26) or the majority of officials use the NF to the letter on this particular issue. I certainly could be wrong, but that's really not my point here.
He asked the question in the context of a test, which I assume is based on NFHS mechanics.

You are assuming a lot. He did not say what test he was taking and who was administering that test.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You are assuming a lot. He did not say what test he was taking and who was administering that test.

Peace

Yep, and your intitial response assumed his organization was
1. Doing it your way
and
2. Had codified that mechanic

[rwest]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not so sure that what my state does is so different from the "norm." You assume that every state follows the NF to the letter on many things. If I have learned anything from this board I have learned that a lot of areas do things contrary to the NF Mechanics. If that was not the case then we would only see black and white shirts (from NF members) and always see consistent mechanics. At this point we do not see that consistently.



I have said that it looks stupid to have the lead call a closely guarded play in the area. For one the player likely is not going to be in that area very long. Also the player likely did not start in that area either. And I would not like to see a Lead be so focused on the ball when other things are going on there. If you disagree that is OK, but to just blindly say that is the way it should be done is ridiculous. There are a lot of things the NF does that everyone does not agree with. This was not the case until Mary Struckoff tried to implement the NCAA-W philosophy into the high school game. That might work in that game but does not work as well in my opinion at the high school level when the rules are not the same.

Peace

The defense is in a 2-3 zone and the ball is dumped into the low post area below the Free Throw line extended, clearly in the Lead's primary. The defense traps and the Lead isn't going to begin a closely guarded count? I respect your opinion, but really all the arguments one makes against the Lead not having a closely guarded count can be made for the C and T. The C and T can get straight lined just as easy. They can move to get an angle, but so can Lead. If the C and T continue their count, they may miss something else going on in their area just like the Lead. Really all the arguments against the Lead having this call can be made against the C and T. When the C and T begin a closely guarded count and the play moves out of their area they keep the count and the other officials should extend their coverage area to help out on this play so they don't miss something. The same should be true for the L.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rwest

The defense is in a 2-3 zone and the ball is dumped into the low post area below the Free Throw line extended, clearly in the Lead's primary. The defense traps and the Lead isn't going to begin a closely guarded count? I respect your opinion, but really all the arguments one makes against the Lead not having a closely guarded count can be made for the C and T.

The lead cannot move off the line or to a position to see the play if the ball goes away from them. The C and T can and will if they know their movement. The Lead is pretty much in a fixed position. Also in your play when you say there is a trap in the post, the T or C is looking at that play. In some cases the C is the only person looking at the ball in that case. We are talking about a 5 second count, not all plays that come to that area. The lead's primary role is post play and post players. They have the smallest area for a reason. Then all of a sudden to call one violation you want them to look away to call something. Sorry, not buying how that puts the crew in a better position.

Originally Posted by rwest

The C and T can get straight lined just as easy. They can move to get an angle, but so can Lead. If the C and T continue their count, they may miss something else going on in their area just like the Lead.

So you are telling me, that if a player gets a ball in the post and decides to dribble out to the division line, you want to have the lead try to figure out if the defender is within 6 feet if that player goes to the division line. Yeah, that makes sense.

Originally Posted by rwest

Really all the arguments against the Lead having this call can be made against the C and T.

You can make any argument you like, but that does not mean it makes sense. The C or T can move in any direction several feet to get an angle on just about any play. And it is very common for the C or the T to make all kinds of foul and violation calls in the lane or in the Lead's primary. Why, because the Lead has a lot of players in front of them again. And when the ball goes near the basket, the C and T are usually looking there as their players go there as well. If the Lead calls something above the three point line, someone is going to wonder why. I think that very thing took place in the NCAA Tournament and it was seen as the wrong call and that official did not advance because of that one call. Now you want a guy 15 to 20 feet away calling a violation that they cannot move to keep an angle on?

Originally Posted by rwest

When the C and T begin a closely guarded count and the play moves out of their area they keep the count and the other officials should extend their coverage area to help out on this play so they don't miss something. The same should be true for the L.

We are just going to have to disagree on this and that is fine with me. And the reason it is not taught that way at the NCAA Men's level and in our state and many other jurisdictions. The Lead's role is to deal with post play primarily. Not to worry about where the ball goes all over the court and have them making calls with the ball in those situations. T and C are there to cover the peremiter and plays near the division line. Why do you think the Lead does not have 3 point responsibility in the NF mechanics? They clearly do not want you looking there.

Peace