Appropriateness

[hoopguy]

When if ever would it be okay to approach a fellow ref and comment on a call or missed call you noticed while watching a game. And this does not include instances of evaluating.

Example 1. Ref does not know the 3 second rule and team A shoots, hits the rim, rebounds and shoots again and ref blows whistle for 3 seconds.

Example 2. Same shooter multiple times. shooter catches ball and takes 'shooters hop' aka travels and then shoots the ball.

When if ever would it be appropriate as a viewer to comment to ref? What if you are in street clothes? What if it is AAU style and you are waiting in stripes to ref a game either to take over or on a nearby court? Curious as to what veterans would do and what others feel is okay.

In the case where veterans/varsity officials are watching jv officials then I would think it SHOULD be brought to their attention. I am speaking of non high school venues.

Thanks

[justacoach]

Be sure to dispense some sugar before applying vinegar
You're doing us all a favor by correcting such rudimentary errors.

[JRutledge]

• What is your role to those officials?
• Are you a partner?
• Are you an evaluator with the state or organization?
• Do you know the officials?
• Did they ask for your advice or evaluation?

I personally would only say something to an official if I knew them or if I was in a position to evaluate. For example if I was in our association's observer program and I was at a game to specifically observe an official in our organization. If I have never met an official or did not know them at all and they did not ask for my opinion I would leave it alone. One of these plays you referenced was a judgment call; the other was a rule that I would not get all upset about being missed especially at a non-high school event.

Peace

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by hoopguy

Example 1. Ref does not know the 3 second rule and team A shoots, hits the rim, rebounds and shoots again and ref blows whistle for 3 seconds.

Example 2. Same shooter multiple times. shooter catches ball and takes 'shooters hop' aka travels and then shoots the ball.

When if ever would it be appropriate as a viewer to comment to ref?

If I didn't know the officials, I would introduce myself and start the conversation by asking about their officiating background, how much they have worked, where they took classes, what their goals are, etc.

Work your way around to asking what they saw on the relevant play. Ask what rule they are applying. Ask if you can make a suggestion, and if the answer is yes explain the relevant rule. You have no right to correct them, and should do so only with permission.

In my experience, people are most willing to tolerate correction when they feel that you're on their side and interested in helping them develop, as opposed to just being a jerk, or showing off your rules knowledge, or are otherwise there for your own benefit rather than theirs.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

If I didn't know the officials, I would introduce myself and start the conversation by asking about their officiating background, how much they have worked, where they took classes, what their goals are, etc.

That only works if they know who you are (or your "role" in the officiating hierarchy can be established).

There are way too many variables for there to be one answer here. Rut hit on several of them.

I can't tell you how many times when I was starting out, that someone in street clothes would come up to me after a game, ask if he could give advice, and then tell me things that I thought (and later confirmed) were wrong. Yes, there was some good advice there as well.

I do agree that the best tack might be to ask questions ("What did you have there? I thought the rule was that the 3-second count reset after a shot because of a loss of TC? I'll have to look that up later."). The good officials (or thiose who want to improve) will look it up themselves and learn.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by mbyron

If I didn't know the officials, I would introduce myself and start the conversation by asking about their officiating background, how much they have worked, where they took classes, what their goals are, etc.

Work your way around to asking what they saw on the relevant play. Ask what rule they are applying. Ask if you can make a suggestion, and if the answer is yes explain the relevant rule. You have no right to correct them, and should do so only with permission.

In my experience, people are most willing to tolerate correction when they feel that you're on their side and interested in helping them develop, as opposed to just being a jerk, or showing off your rules knowledge, or are otherwise there for your own benefit rather than theirs.

I have used a similar approach too, although I don't delve too much into their background.

I introduce myself and tell them I'm an official from x association and usually start in by telling them about some calls I liked or witnessed where I thought they did a good job - ya know kind of develop that "bye in" that you're friendly and not there to be an a$$. Depending on how it goes, I have on occasions asked them what they saw on a certain play.

Seldom, if ever, unelss asked, would I offer a critique, a thought, or a rules interpretation.

Depending on the person/crew, some open up and are friendly, others are stand-off-ish. It all depends......

My advice - be careful, friendly, diplomatic, know your place and when to walk away. Not everyone is up for it. I mean how would you feel?

I know how I would feel as I am always looking to learn and improve .....I also know how some of my partners would feel.

[Mark Padgett]

I once commented to Earl Strom after a game that I thought he missed a call. He bi-atch slapped me.

[tref]

How would you handle the same sitch when you're working off-season ball??

[Judtech]

What role do you play in the scenario? Are you there as a fan, evaluator or just killing time? If you are there as a fan then it would not be appropriate to say anything. If you are just a neutral observer, I wouldn't say anything unless it came up in conversation. Who is to say they blew the call and knew they blew the call? What good does someone coming out of the blue to state what they know as the obvious?
It can be a fine line. IMOS, I only comment to officials on good calls that went against a team I have a vested interest in, and then agree with my wife that the officials were horrible!! (Hey, the sofa is only SO comfortable!) As an evaluator, I will ask about a play before I tell them what was right/wrong. i.e. " As a neutral observer, I just let it go unless the subject is brought up by the officials.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

How would you handle the same sitch when you're working off-season ball??

Personally, I would ask, "So did you see anything?"

I can get a good idea gauge of an official from what he has to say about my game.

[bainsey]

The problem is, if you keep the tidbit to yourself, that official loses an opportunity to improve. Personally, I'd rather have an uncomfortable moment of feedback than have the constructive critic keep it to himself.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bainsey

The problem is, if you keep the tidbit to yourself, that official loses an opportunity to improve. Personally, I'd rather have an uncomfortable moment of feedback than have the constructive critic keep it to himself.

There opportunity to improve has nothing to do with me telling them something. Actually if they want to improve then they should seek information, not give it unsolicited. If you do not ask they might not want to hear what I have to say or want to debate over the validity of what is said. Never should you just give advice in something like officiating if the people are not asking and you do not know them. It is a waste of breathe to give information someone does not even want or care about. And there are a lot of folks who couldn't care less what you have to tell them. It has little or nothing to do with being uncomfortable, it has to do with saying something they will get offended by because they do not respect you or want to hear what you have to say. This is why I only give advice to those that seek it.

Peace

[Upward ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There opportunity to improve has nothing to do with me telling them something. Actually if they want to improve then they should seek information, not give it unsolicited. If you do not ask they might not want to hear what I have to say or want to debate over the validity of what is said. Never should you just give advice in something like officiating if the people are not asking and you do not know them. It is a waste of breathe to give information someone does not even want or care about. And there are a lot of folks who couldn't care less what you have to tell them. It has little or nothing to do with being uncomfortable, it has to do with saying something they will get offended by because they do not respect you or want to hear what you have to say. This is why I only give advice to those that seek it.

Peace

Almost all of the unsolicited advice I get is from the coaches ! Although occasionally I do get some from the league commisioner's wife.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bainsey

The problem is, if you keep the tidbit to yourself, that official loses an opportunity to improve. Personally, I'd rather have an uncomfortable moment of feedback than have the constructive critic keep it to himself.

From your POV, this makes sense... but from most people's own point of view, what they see or know is right - and if it differs from someone else - then that someone else is wrong. And, at the same time, the guy you're talking to is looking at it the same way. Unless you know someone's a green rookie, it's highly likely you're not going to be received well.

Consider this. I was on the field of a softball game about 4 months ago. After the game another uninvolved umpire informed me that I'd missed a call when a pitch struck a girl on the hands. Said umpire approached us calmly and nicely and just as was suggested above told us we did a great job. He then informed partner and I that "the hands are part of the bat", and the ball that hit the girl should have been ruled a foul ball. He then went on to commisserate with us that it's a tough call to make when a girl is crying over it, but sometimes we get paid to make the hard decisions.

From HIS point of view, he was right, and he was "helping" us by imparting his wisdom. Now I'm sure YOU would never approach an unknown official with something you weren't right about ... but don't we all think we're right most of the time?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Now I'm sure YOU would never approach an unknown official with something you weren't right about ... but don't we all think we're right most of the time?

Perhaps, but if you keep it to yourself, I don't learn anything. If you pass along your wisdom, I likely will cease getting it wrong. There's always a chance that I saw something differently than the viewpoint passed to me, but those moments you can take in stride.

The thing I've come to learn is that the post-game "good game" or "nice job" comments from your partner are quite meaningless. What they're basically saying is, "we got through that one," but these friendly offerings are no evaluation of your work.

Instead, we generally have to wait until the end of the season to get the truth, in the form of our evaluations. This is where you want to yell, "where was THIS information two months ago?!" You can't take corrective action on information withheld, and that's the most frustrating part of it all.