Blarge administration

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

When are NCAAM and the NFHS going to follow the NCAAW and not allow a change to be called? The two calling officials must get together and decide whos call it is and make one call. Make one coach mad...not two.

I think that is a dumb mechanic and I seriously doubt that the Men's side is going to change that. It is easy to avoid if you do the right things. But to have both officials call something and only pick one in that case is just silly. I would never advocate that mechanic. And if officials would just raise their hand we would not have to worry about this.

Peace

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think that is a dumb mechanic and I seriously doubt that the Men's side is going to change that. It is easy to avoid if you do the right things. But to have both officials call something and only pick one in that case is just silly. I would never advocate that mechanic. And if officials would just raise their hand we would not have to worry about this.

Peace

JRut,

If this was a perfect world that would work but there were a lot of blarges at the D1 men's level last season. It can't be a block and a charge...it has to be one or the other. We would love for officials to be more patient and work in their primary but blarges are going to happen and IMO getting together is the lesser of two evils here.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

JRut,

If this was a perfect world that would work but there were a lot of blarges at the D1 men's level last season. It can't be a block and a charge...it has to be one or the other. We would love for officials to be more patient and work in their primary but blarges are going to happen and IMO getting together is the lesser of two evils here.

There are a lot of blarges in D1 men's because the officials refuse to simply raise their hands to make a simple PC foul call. They run out to call something immediately. If they stopped doing that and supervisors stopped hiring guys or never punishing them for this, then they would not have that problem. I still think it is a silly mechanic to choose and put more responsibility on officials to avoid such situations is better. Just an opinion.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

If this was a perfect world that would work but there were a lot of blarges at the D1 men's level last season. It can't be a block and a charge...it has to be one or the other. We would love for officials to be more patient and work in their primary but blarges are going to happen and IMO getting together is the lesser of two evils here.

Yup. In the immortal words of Mother Teresa... "Sh!t happens!" And it happened to some of the better D1 guys last year too. You just have to adjudicate the play by the ruleset being used.

[Welpe]

And cue JAR in 5...4...3...2...1...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if officials would just raise their hand we would not have to worry about this.

Peace

Originally Posted by Welpe

And cue JAR in 5...4...3...2...1...

I wasn't gonna, but since you asked.

My question is always that even if the officials did simply raise a hand, isn't that still "calling a foul"?

True, the whole world doesn't know what each official's call was at this point, but I see nothing written anywhere which says that a preliminary signal makes any call any more binding and irreversible.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I wasn't gonna, but since you asked.

My question is always that even if the officials did simply raise a hand, isn't that still "calling a foul"?

True, the whole world doesn't know what each official's call was at this point, but I see nothing written anywhere which says that a preliminary signal makes any call any more binding and irreversible.

4.19.8 Situation C (last year's casebook) says so.

"One officials calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1."

I would think that would be hard to do without a preliminary signal.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

4.19.8 Situation C (last year's casebook) says so.

"One officials calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1."

I would think that would be hard to do without a preliminary signal.

Peace

Why? You go up with a fist. Your partner does likewise. You know you what your call was going to be and so does he. It is not that unusual for you and your partner to have different calls on the same play. But it's okay to only report one of them unless you gave conflicting preliminary signals.

Where is this written?

nowhere

[zeedonk]

Been busy today- not ignoring everyone.

Flipping the index cards in my head reveals that watching a game before mine over the summer had a blarge and one of the refs hanging around commented that the blarge should go like this- Tweet- double whistle, different fouls- come together and discuss, if neither backs off the call, you have a blarge which is administered as a foul for each and only 1 foul shot (if shot was missed).

I know that this was wrong, but I haven't been in the book for awhile, so I didn't exactly recall what the proper adminsitration was. Of course, now I've been back in the book and found the correct administration.

Perhaps it is also a difference in NCAAW and NCAAM, but then again, it's never always 100% clear during AAU ball which rules we are using. If I recall correctly, it was a girls tourney, using some NCAAW rules.

Z

[jritchie]

It happens in D-1 more because they are trying to look good first and not worry about proper mechanics! I'm with Rut, if they would do what they are taught, it wouldn't happen nearly as much as it has been.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by jritchie

It happens in D-1 more because they are trying to look good first and not worry about proper mechanics! I'm with Rut, if they would do what they are taught, it wouldn't happen nearly as much as it has been.

Trying to look good first...where did you get this from?

[tref]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

there were a lot of blarges at the D1 men's level last season.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is easy to avoid if you do the right things.

Pregame... pregame... pregame!

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think that is a dumb mechanic and I seriously doubt that the Men's side is going to change that. It is easy to avoid if you do the right things. But to have both officials call something and only pick one in that case is just silly. I would never advocate that mechanic. And if officials would just raise their hand we would not have to worry about this.

Peace

I'd bet good money that THIS is the reason why J.D. Collins cares so much about officials stopping the clock on all fouls and violations (He said so in the 2017-18 NCAA men's basketball mechanics video on YouTube, and the men's CCA manual has written instructions that stopping the clock (with open hand or fist) is required on ALL fouls and violations). If an official posts a fist, he can look for another fist or hand. For example, the Big 12 All-Access video showed a play in the Baylor-OU game where James Breeding, the L, raised his fist to call a charge by Quincy Acy of Baylor, but saw that Joe DeRosa, the T, had a different foul on Oklahoma 21, and wisely held off, because the foul by 21 caused Acy to charge.

Officials can come together if both raise a fist, but once the block and charge are both signalled, in NCAAM or NFHS rules, the calls cannot be withdrawn. This, therefore, is a situation where an ounce of prevention (using proper signals to stop the clock and scanning the floor before making a preliminary signal) is worth a pound of cure (enforcing both fouls).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

... stopping the clock (with open hand or fist) is required on ALL fouls and violations). If an official posts a fist, he can look for another fist or hand .. an ounce of prevention (using proper signals to stop the clock ...

Good point. IAABO international, state, and local, have been telling us (with international observers criticizing our guys in our state tournament) for years to always use one of the three stop the clock signals, and telling us, and telling us, and telling us. They never bothered to tell us why. This is a good rationale. It's really not about stopping the clock, is it?

Of course officials can argue about the real need for the stop the clock signal for out of bounds plays, but that's another story for another time.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I'd bet good money that THIS is the reason why J.D. Collins cares so much about officials stopping the clock on all fouls and violations (He said so in the 2017-18 NCAA men's basketball mechanics video on YouTube, and the men's CCA manual has written instructions that stopping the clock (with open hand or fist) is required on ALL fouls and violations). If an official posts a fist, he can look for another fist or hand. For example, the Big 12 All-Access video showed a play in the Baylor-OU game where James Breeding, the L, raised his fist to call a charge by Quincy Acy of Baylor, but saw that Joe DeRosa, the T, had a different foul on Oklahoma 21, and wisely held off, because the foul by 21 caused Acy to charge.

Officials can come together if both raise a fist, but once the block and charge are both signalled, in NCAAM or NFHS rules, the calls cannot be withdrawn. This, therefore, is a situation where an ounce of prevention (using proper signals to stop the clock and scanning the floor before making a preliminary signal) is worth a pound of cure (enforcing both fouls).

You might be the first person on this forum to talk to veteran posters like they've never officiated anything above wreck league ball.