Illegal Uniforms ???

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1. Switch from the JV shirt into the varsity shirt he was supposed to be wearing. Same number.
2. He goes to the locker room injured and returns in street clothes.

The point was that you don't really need a "record" of the switch....you only need to realize that it was illegal. Perhaps you remember the specifics of the rules later in the game.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The point was that you don't really need a "record" of the switch....you only need to realize that it was illegal. Perhaps you remember the specifics of the rules later in the game.

You're going to call a T after the expiration of the 4th quarter for an illegal uniform allegedly worn in the first quarter in a 1 point game without iron-clad proof? I'm not (and I'm going to try to avoid calling it even with the proof since it's been such a long time since the offense occurred). Just because the uniform the player is wearing now is illegal is no guarantee that he was wearing that uniform when he participated and it's not a foul to wear an illegal uniform on the bench.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

You're going to call a T after the expiration of the 4th quarter for an illegal uniform allegedly worn in the first quarter in a 1 point game without iron-clad proof? I'm not (and I'm going to try to avoid calling it even with the proof since it's been such a long time since the offense occurred). Just because the uniform the player is wearing now is illegal is no guarantee that he was wearing that uniform when he participated and it's not a foul to wear an illegal uniform on the bench.

If the official does his job and takes a look while the kid is in the game or is entering the game, then this doesn't become a big problem later.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If the official does his job and takes a look while the kid is in the game or is entering the game, then this doesn't become a big problem later.

Most things are easier if we do them right in the first place. However, we were taking as a given that that it was missed when it happened and only discovered later.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

You're going to call a T after the expiration of the 4th quarter for an illegal uniform allegedly worn in the first quarter in a 1 point game without iron-clad proof? I'm not (and I'm going to try to avoid calling it even with the proof since it's been such a long time since the offense occurred). Just because the uniform the player is wearing now is illegal is no guarantee that he was wearing that uniform when he participated and it's not a foul to wear an illegal uniform on the bench.

No. We're talking about the rule, not what I'd actually call.

That said, I don't even agree that the rule allows you to go back in time at all....just discussing the ramifications as if it did.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No. We're talking about the rule, not what I'd actually call.

That said, I don't even agree that the rule allows you to go back in time at all....just discussing the ramifications as if it did.

But that's my point, other than an illegal number (which presumably matches the number in the book), you have a player now wearing an illegal uniform who did participate but there's no way of knowing if he was wearing an illegal uniform when he participated. Ergo, no discovery and no penalty.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

But that's my point, other than an illegal number (which presumably matches the number in the book), you have a player now wearing an illegal uniform who did participate but there's no way of knowing if he was wearing an illegal uniform when he participated. Ergo, no discovery and no penalty.

You have it backwards.....you realized that the jersey they had on when they were in was illegal (you remember it had a bunch of decorative symbols all across the numbers but, for whatever reason, failed to address it when they were participating). Can you now penalize that?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You have it backwards.....you realized that the jersey they had on when they were in was illegal (you remember it had a bunch of decorative symbols all across the numbers but, for whatever reason, failed to address it when they were participating). Can you now penalize that?

Can you as a matter of rule? Yes. You just now discovered it. Now, as a matter of reality, is your memory really strong enough to reach back through 4 quarters to remember exactly what a single player was wearing and realize now, but not then, there was something wrong with it? I submit the answer to that is no.

But that's not the scenario we were discussing at all.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Can you as a matter of rule? Yes. You just now discovered it. Now, as a matter of reality, is your memory really strong enough to reach back through 4 quarters to remember exactly what a single player was wearing and realize now, but not then, there was something wrong with it? I submit the answer to that is no.

But that's not the scenario we were discussing at all.

Sure it is...the question whether a player who wore an illegal uniform in the 1st quarter and hasn't played since (or somehow made the uniform legal) can be penalized in the 4th quarter no matter why the uniform was illegal. If you can penalize due to an illegal number, you can penalize for any other illegal uniform issues. There is no requirement that the infraction be documented.

That said, I maintain that the rules change that moved the responsibility to the coach and limited it to a single T per game really didn't intend to change the "statue-of-limitations" on this rule.....which, if I am correct, means you couldn't penalize anything regarding uniforms after the ball becomes live as the player enters teh game.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure it is...the question whether a player who wore an illegal uniform in the 1st quarter and hasn't played since (or somehow made the uniform legal) can be penalized in the 4th quarter no matter why the uniform was illegal. If you can penalize due to an illegal number, you can penalize for any other illegal uniform issues. There is no requirement that the infraction be documented.

Our scenario was Team B's head coach pointing out an illegal number, not the official suddenly remembering an illegal uniform. The important distinction here for me is the fact that the illegal number is in the scorebook.

That said, I maintain that the rules change that moved the responsibility to the coach and limited it to a single T per game really didn't intend to change the "statue-of-limitations" on this rule.....which, if I am correct, means you couldn't penalize anything regarding uniforms after the fact at all.

I would tend to agree that it didn't intend to change it, but it does appear to have changed it. The best solution, I agree, is to reinstate the limitation.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If the official does his job and takes a look while the kid is in the game or is entering the game, then this doesn't become a big problem later.

The same could be said about correctable errors, but those situations still happen.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The point was that you don't really need a "record" of the switch....you only need to realize that it was illegal. Perhaps you remember the specifics of the rules later in the game.

To me, "proof" is my own ability to verify with my eyes. If it's missed, and the problem is fixed, there's no way I can verify later.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

To me, "proof" is my own ability to verify with my eyes. If it's missed, and the problem is fixed, there's no way I can verify later.

Your solution is faulty. Who's to say that such a player, knowing they were not going to play after the half, didn't change to a ceremonial/decorative jersey at halftime. What you see them in on the bench is no indication that they were wearing that earlier. If you are going to call something for an illegal unifrom on someone who played eariler in the game, you must depend on your memory. (But again, I think the rule implies that it must be discovered while they are participating).

[Judtech]

Wow 4 pages on something that really doesn't have much to do with how a game is decided. Just my soap box, along with the head band, hair restraints, sock logo's, width of stripe etc. Uggghh. Jewelry and rubber bands on wrists I get, but why is it our/my responsibility to make sure a uniform, purchased by an athletic department, from an equipment manufacturer with money and resorces is 'legal'
I know we were talking about numbers etc, but I just felt the need to vent. Carry on!

Besides, I always thought the unitards that NC State wore 'back in the day' should have been declared illegal.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Besides, I always thought the unitards that NC State wore 'back in the day' should have been declared illegal.

I believe they lasted exactly one game. Which was one game too many.