Rec league rule dilemma

[Mark Padgett]

Our local kids rec league (grades 3-12) has kept the "old" rules regarding the coaching box (we don't allow one) and having timeout requests coming only from players on the floor. There's been a strong movement by many of the Board members (almost all of whom are also coaches) to allow head coaches to request timeouts from the bench. The reason we kept the old rule is that each year, we add some new HS kids to our referee roster and we feel it's difficult for them to take their attention away from the game on the floor to recognize a TO request from the bench (and have to verify it's coming from a HC, especially since the HC is seated). Many of our refs are in their first, second or third year and are HS students.

Those of us on the Board who are refs want to keep the rule the way it is but it looks like, unless we can come up with a more convincing argument, it's going to be changed for the coming season. I would appreciate any input from you guys that we could use to try to convince the other Board members to leave it alone. The main point of the coaches is that it's sometimes hard to get the attention of a player on the floor during play to get him or her to request the timeout.

Thanks. BTW - this is a purely recreational, not competitive, league. One suggestion one of the refs had was to allow the rule change from the 7th grade up and keep it at 6th grade and below. Most of our experienced refs work the upper grades and we have lots of rule differences for the different grade levels already, so it wouldn't be anything "new".

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Thanks. BTW - this is a purely recreational, not competitive, league.

What, exactly, do you mean when you say this? I consider our league to be both, and we don't even have timeouts.

[BillyMac]

This should do the trick:

Controversial timeout helps Syracuse past UConn - Sports Pros(e)

[Pantherdreams]

Threaten to go FIBA.

COach can only call timeouts and only be request at the table and only during a dead ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

BTW - this is a purely recreational, not competitive, league.

If it's purely recreational, why should letting coaches call TO's ever be a problem?

[Judtech]

Maybe explain that by having the players call time outs it is teaching them to pay attention to what the coach is saying.
Coach "Chris, can you call a time out for me?"
Chris "OK. Mr/Ms Referee, my coach wants me to call a TO"
On a purely 'touchy feely' stand point it makes the players feel they are really important to the game. Imagine if the least able player is on the floor and the coach ask THEM to call the all important TO, the kid is going to feel they accomplished SOMETHING in the game. Just a thought

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Tell them that keeping the rule as is conforms to the history of the game in which the coach was an afterthought and the the captain was in control of the team on the court.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Tell them that keeping the rule as is conforms to the history of the game.

Why stop there. Let them go back to Dr. Naismith's original thirteen rules.

1. The ball may be thrown in any direction with one or both hands.
2. The ball may be batted in any direction with one or both hands (never with the fist).
3. A player cannot run with the ball. The player must throw it from the spot on which he catches it, allowance
to be made for a man who catches the ball when running at a good speed if he tries to stop.
4. The ball must be held in or between the hands; the arms or body must not be used for holding it.
5. No shouldering, holding, pushing, tripping, or striking in any way the person of an opponent shall be
allowed; the first infringement of this rule by any player shall count as a foul, the second shall disqualify
him until the next goal is made, or, if there was evident intent to injure the person, for the whole of the game,
no substitute allowed.
6. A foul is striking at the ball with the fist, violation of Rules 3, 4, and such as described in Rule 5.
7. If either side makes three consecutive fouls, it shall count a goal for the opponents (consecutive means
without the opponents in the mean time making a foul).
8. A goal shall be made when the ball is thrown or batted from the grounds into the basket and stays there,
providing those defending the goal do not touch or disturb the goal. If the ball rests on the edges, and the
opponent moves the basket, it shall count as a goal.
9. When the ball goes out of bounds, it shall be thrown into the field of play by the person first touching it.
In case of a dispute, the umpire shall throw it straight into the field. The thrower-in is allowed five seconds;
if he holds it longer, it shall go to the opponent. If any side persists in delaying the game, the umpire shall
call a foul on that side.
10. The umpire shall be judge of the men and shall note the fouls and notify the referee when three consecutive
fouls have been made. He shall have power to disqualify men according to Rule 5.
11. The referee shall be judge of the ball and shall decide when the ball is in play, in bounds, to which side it
belongs, and shall keep the time. He shall decide when a goal has been made, and keep account of the goals
with any other duties that are usually performed by a referee.
12. The time shall be two 15-minute halves, with five minutes' rest between.
13. The side making the most goals in that time shall be declared the winner. In case of a draw, the game may,
by agreement of the captains, be continued until another goal is made.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Why stop there. Let them go back to Dr. Naismith's original thirteen rules.

1. The ball may be thrown in any direction with one or both hands.
2. The ball may be batted in any direction with one or both hands (never with the fist).
3. A player cannot run with the ball. The player must throw it from the spot on which he catches it, allowance
to be made for a man who catches the ball when running at a good speed if he tries to stop.
4. The ball must be held in or between the hands; the arms or body must not be used for holding it.
5. No shouldering, holding, pushing, tripping, or striking in any way the person of an opponent shall be
allowed; the first infringement of this rule by any player shall count as a foul, the second shall disqualify
him until the next goal is made, or, if there was evident intent to injure the person, for the whole of the game,
no substitute allowed.
6. A foul is striking at the ball with the fist, violation of Rules 3, 4, and such as described in Rule 5.
7. If either side makes three consecutive fouls, it shall count a goal for the opponents (consecutive means
without the opponents in the mean time making a foul).
8. A goal shall be made when the ball is thrown or batted from the grounds into the basket and stays there,
providing those defending the goal do not touch or disturb the goal. If the ball rests on the edges, and the
opponent moves the basket, it shall count as a goal.
9. When the ball goes out of bounds, it shall be thrown into the field of play by the person first touching it.
In case of a dispute, the umpire shall throw it straight into the field. The thrower-in is allowed five seconds;
if he holds it longer, it shall go to the opponent. If any side persists in delaying the game, the umpire shall
call a foul on that side.
10. The umpire shall be judge of the men and shall note the fouls and notify the referee when three consecutive
fouls have been made. He shall have power to disqualify men according to Rule 5.
11. The referee shall be judge of the ball and shall decide when the ball is in play, in bounds, to which side it
belongs, and shall keep the time. He shall decide when a goal has been made, and keep account of the goals
with any other duties that are usually performed by a referee.
12. The time shall be two 15-minute halves, with five minutes' rest between.
13. The side making the most goals in that time shall be declared the winner. In case of a draw, the game may,
by agreement of the captains, be continued until another goal is made.

Billy:

I agree with you 100%. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

MTD, Sr.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

The reason we kept the old rule is that each year, we add some new HS kids to our referee roster and we feel it's difficult for them to take their attention away from the game on the floor to recognize a TO request from the bench (and have to verify it's coming from a HC, especially since the HC is seated).

I see this as a learning opportunity for the zebra colts.

Simply put, you can teach the officials how to recognize a legitimate time-out request (dead ball or player control). Granted, they should be looking for this when a player requests time out, so adding the head coach to the mix only seems right to me.

The more who learn the rules, the better it is for all of us.

[Adam]

Personally, I like the idea of allowing it at the higher levels, where your officials are slightly more experienced. You may have to bend to salvage anything; and focus your argument on how it's not a good idea for young officials to have to take their eyes off the play.

Or, if you do lose; explain to them the rule and how it's clear that the officials must verifiy identity and opportunity before granting a TO, and any coach who complains about not getting a TO in such a circumstance will get a T. Then instruct your officials accordingly.

The problem is, it's the very situations where a coach can't get his players' attention that our attention needs to be on the playes.

[CoachCER]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Our local kids rec league (grades 3-12) has kept the "old" rules regarding the coaching box (we don't allow one) and having timeout requests coming only from players on the floor. There's been a strong movement by many of the Board members (almost all of whom are also coaches) to allow head coaches to request timeouts from the bench. The reason we kept the old rule is that each year, we add some new HS kids to our referee roster and we feel it's difficult for them to take their attention away from the game on the floor to recognize a TO request from the bench (and have to verify it's coming from a HC, especially since the HC is seated). Many of our refs are in their first, second or third year and are HS students.

Those of us on the Board who are refs want to keep the rule the way it is but it looks like, unless we can come up with a more convincing argument, it's going to be changed for the coming season. I would appreciate any input from you guys that we could use to try to convince the other Board members to leave it alone. The main point of the coaches is that it's sometimes hard to get the attention of a player on the floor during play to get him or her to request the timeout.

Thanks. BTW - this is a purely recreational, not competitive, league. One suggestion one of the refs had was to allow the rule change from the 7th grade up and keep it at 6th grade and below. Most of our experienced refs work the upper grades and we have lots of rule differences for the different grade levels already, so it wouldn't be anything "new".

We follow the current rules of allowing the coaching box and letting the coaches call time outs. We also use high school age officials for our K-4 league and I have not noticed any difficulties with the younger officials identifying who requested the TO without being overly distracted. Our benches are opposite the crowd, which may make a difference, as there is less background noise coming from the bench area.

[jeffpea]

is the game at this age group moving "so fast" as to prevent officials (regardless of experience) from turning their head to "see" a coach calling a time-out?

[Mark Padgett]

Thanks everyone. We're having a rules committee meeting in a few days and a Board meeting next week. If anything interesting comes out of all this, I'll post it.

If I had to bet (Tim Donaghy, are you listening?), I'd say we're probably going to allow the HC to request a TO from the bench in grades 5 and up but leave it the way it is in grades 3 and 4. Other things we're considering include reducing the number of timeouts allowed (we only have the gyms for a certain amount of time and games have been running long), having the 6th grade boys use a 30" ball instead of a 28.5" (and keeping 3rd thru 5th boys with the "small" ball) and allowing a coaching box at all grade levels, which is something we've never allowed in over 30 years. I don't think that last one is going to get anywhere.

[26 Year Gap]

Our pipe dream for NFHS is for coaches to only be able to call time-out during a dead ball [as was suggested by an earlier poster]. This would allow your younger officials to focus on the players during live ball situations and yet be aware of the allowances in high school games and those adhering to Federation rules. It would still require coaches to relay information to players on the court and the players would have to be aware of that as well.