Little League Look-Back Rule

[Paul L]

Little League (Majors) softball. R1 on third. B2 draws a walk, F2 returns ball to F1 as B2 trots to first. B2 then touches first and without stopping rounds it for a couple of steps, then stops and returns to first. Defensive coach claims that once B2 moved off first toward second, she was required to attempt to advance to second and could not return to first, and thus should be declared out. I say no, applying my knowledge of NFHS rule 8-7-4(a) and ASA rule 8-7-T(a).

Days later, I looked up the LL look-back rule. After intense skimming, all I could find was 7.08(a)(5), after the part about no lead-offs. It just says (twice) that once F1 has the ball in the circle, a runner off a base must immediately try to advance or return. It does not require that the batter-runner reach first (or be put out) before it is in effect, nor does it have the above-referenced articles describing the rules for rounding and overrunning first. Strictly interpreted, R1 could not be off third once the ball was returned to F1, even though B2 was still en route to first. And arguably, B2 could not even lose contact with first base if she touches it after F1 has the ball in the circle. So she wouldn't be out for rounding and not continuing to second, she'd be out just for rounding at all.

So . . , Questions:
1. What ruling the original play?
2. What am I missing about the LL look-back rule?
3. In general, how much should I import other rulesets to fill in the gaps in the Little League rules?
4. Since one of the penaties of the LL no-leadoffs/look-back rule is that the "circle must be properly marked", do I make the offending player do it personally, or can anyone on the offensive team do it?

[kono]

You ruling was correct - advancing runners are allowed to round the base, pause for a brief moment (your judgment), then either advance or return. The ball in the circle is not a magic stop button. This information is interpreted in the Rim that they hand out at LL Rules Clinics.

As for what rules to use filling in gaps?? LL rules are based on OBR with safety modifications and softball differences. You could probably get away with applying ASA interps without many problems - although some purists will probably state otherwise

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Little League (Majors) softball. R1 on third. B2 draws a walk, F2 returns ball to F1 as B2 trots to first. B2 then touches first and without stopping rounds it for a couple of steps, then stops and returns to first. Defensive coach claims that once B2 moved off first toward second, she was required to attempt to advance to second and could not return to first, and thus should be declared out. I say no, applying my knowledge of NFHS rule 8-7-4(a) and ASA rule 8-7-T(a).

Days later, I looked up the LL look-back rule. After intense skimming, all I could find was 7.08(a)(5), after the part about no lead-offs. It just says (twice) that once F1 has the ball in the circle, a runner off a base must immediately try to advance or return. It does not require that the batter-runner reach first (or be put out) before it is in effect, nor does it have the above-referenced articles describing the rules for rounding and overrunning first. Strictly interpreted, R1 could not be off third once the ball was returned to F1, even though B2 was still en route to first. And arguably, B2 could not even lose contact with first base if she touches it after F1 has the ball in the circle. So she wouldn't be out for rounding and not continuing to second, she'd be out just for rounding at all.

So . . , Questions:
1. What ruling the original play?
2. What am I missing about the LL look-back rule?
3. In general, how much should I import other rulesets to fill in the gaps in the Little League rules?
4. Since one of the penaties of the LL no-leadoffs/look-back rule is that the "circle must be properly marked", do I make the offending player do it personally, or can anyone on the offensive team do it?

Don't know LL rules, but:
1) call probably correct, but I'm non-LL
2) How does "a runner off a base must immediately try to advance or return" translate to not rounding. The runner must be off the base to be able to return.
3) NONE
4) ???

[scroobs]

Here is an e-mail clarification to the LBR from the LL UIC back in 2006. It hasn't changed since then...

1. On ball four the batter-runner has the right to touch the first base bag and then round and turn/advance towards second base. As long as the runner is in motion it does not matter whether the pitcher has possession of the ball in the circle or not, it is not a violation. Once the batter-runner has rounded first and then stops (whether it is one foot off the base or thirty feet off the base) then the circle rule goes into effect, which is the runner must immediately advance or retreat. Because everyone has a different version or idea of what immediately is, we instruct at the Umpire School to use a count of one thousand one, one thousand two and if the umpire gets to one thousand three that is too long and is a circle violation. Also once a runner has stopped and the count goes into effect, whichever way she/he has decided to go she/he must continue in that direction or that also is a violation of the circle rule.

Under Little League Softball Rules.

When there are runners on base and the batter receives a walk, the runner/runners on base are also bound by the circle rule. Example being: runner on third base, batter receives a walk and is running towards first base with the intention of continuing on to second base to draw a throw at second so the runner on third can attempt to score. The catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher within the circle before the batter-runner reaches first base. The runner on third base is bound by the circle rule whether the batter has reached first base or not so if the runner on third continues to advance towards home she/he is legal, once she/he stop or hesitates she/he is now bound by the circle rule if the umpire performs the count and she/he has not advanced towards home or retreated to third the umpire will declare "Time" the runner on third base has violated the circle rule and the runner is out and the ball is dead at that point. If the batter-runner has not touched first yet or is between first and second when the violation occurs, the runner on third is out and the batter-runner is returned or stays at first base. If the batter-runner had legally advanced to second base before the violation, she/he would be allowed to stay at second base.

So in conclusion, the pitcher having possession of the ball in the circle does not automatically freeze the batter-runner or runners or constitute a circle violation. The defense must make the offense stop or hesitate to put the circle rule into effect. Theoretically, a batter could receive a base on balls and continue to advance completely around the bases (pitcher has possession within the circle before the batter reaches first base) until the defense makes her/him stop or the pitch begins. As stated above the guideline we instruct is the one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three if they are not advancing or retreating by the third count it is a violation and the runner is called out and the ball is dead. All runners are bound by the circle rule when the pitcher has possession within the circle.

Also, this is a link to the LL Umpires School Rules Manual PDF. Rulr 7.13 explains LBR...See if it's more indepth than the book...One thing about LL, the book has alot of gray areas, so you have to seek out the proper clarification.
http://www.littleleague.org/umpires/...les_Manual.pdf

[BretMan]

Little League always does have their own twist on things...

If that's the way the call it, then that's the way it is. But I have a problem with this piece of instruction:

1. On ball four the batter-runner has the right to touch the first base bag and then round and turn/advance towards second base. As long as the runner is in motion it does not matter whether the pitcher has possession of the ball in the circle or not, it is not a violation. Once the batter-runner has rounded first and then stops (whether it is one foot off the base or thirty feet off the base) then the circle rule goes into effect...

Might someone reading that, who is not familiar with the rules, surmise that the "circle rule" is in effect "whether the pitcher has possession of the ball or not" as soon as the batter-runner touches first base?

[Paul L]

Thank you, scroobs.

[scroobs]

LL LBR is the same as the ASA LBR accept for one difference. On a walk , the runner's are bound by the LBR BEFORE the runner reaches first, as soon as the pitcher receives the ball in the circle. If they're on the move though, forward or back, they still get a stop...Problem is finding, or teaching a District to call it correctly. If they don't have access to the Umpires School Rule Manual, they'll go by the book and the book rule isn't even close to the proper application... so here's the clarification from the Umpires School Rule Manual.

(SOFTBALL) the runner fails to keep contact with the base to which that runner is entitled until the ball has been batted or reaches the batter [JUNIOR/SENIOR/BIG LEAGUE SOFTBALL: until the ball has been released by the pitcher.] When a runner is off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has the ball within the eight (8) foot radius circle, the runner must immediately attempt to advance to the next base or return to the base the runner is entitled. Note: If the pitcher has possession of the ball within the pitcher’s circle, and is not making a play (a fake throw is considered a play for the interpretation of this rule only), runners not in contact with their bases must immediately attempt to advance or return to base.
PENALTY: The ball is dead, “No Pitch” is declared, and the runner is out. Eight (8) foot radius circle must be properly marked.
APPROVED RULING: (Junior/Senior/Big League Baseball/Softball): When a batter becomes a runner on a third strike that is not caught, and starts for the bench or his/her position, that batter may advance to first base at any time before entering the bench. To put the batter out, the defense must tag the batter or first base before the batter touches first base.
INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS:
If the runner(s) is off a base when the pitcher has the ball within the eight-foot circle, the runner(s) may continue around the bases. Having the ball within the circle does NOT stop the runner(s).
If the pitcher has the ball within the eight-foot circle and the runner stops while off a base, the runner must IMMEDIATELY either advance OR return. The runner has a choice. When this choice is made, if the runner stops again before reaching the base, she shall be called out.
If the runner is on the base when the ball is returned to the pitcher within the eight-foot circle, the runner may not leave the base or will be called out.
The responsibility for the runners to advance or return is removed if the pitcher attempts a play on a runner. In Softball, a fake throw by the pitcher, from the eight-foot circle, IS considered an attempted play for the interpretation of the circle

[jmaellis]

ASA rules, and I fully understand that this might be a dumb question, but say the runner rounds 1B stops and then makes the choice to advance to 2B, the pitcher makes a play on her and throws to second (since all the games I'm calling right now have a cold home plate, a runner on third wouldn't stop a play at 2B). Since the runner can't return to 1st base in this situation would she automatically be out if she got caught up in a "pickle"?

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

ASA rules, and I fully understand that this might be a dumb question, but say the runner rounds 1B stops and then makes the choice to advance to 2B, the pitcher makes a play on her and throws to second (since all the games I'm calling right now have a cold home plate, a runner on third wouldn't stop a play at 2B). Since the runner can't return to 1st base in this situation would she automatically be out if she got caught up in a "pickle"?

Yes, she may return to first. Since she is in a pickle, they have indeed made a play on her. The ball is out of the circle, and if the ball is out of the circle there is not LBR to be in effect.