In a sentence

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Let me throw this into the mix just to confuse things even more. A1 is dribbling the ball. B1 touches the ball. During the time that B1 is touching the ball, A1 fouls B1. Would you call a player control foul on A1? Remember - player control is defined as holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

You haven't given us enough information. Did B1's touch cause A1 to lose player control? It's just a technicality, in any case, because even if A1 did lose player control, it's still a team control foul (assuming it's not intentional or flagrant; in which case, again, player control is just a technicality). Same penalty.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

"An opponent touching a dribble doesn't end that dribble unless player control is lost."

I think that's the sentence that sums up the question, and why it's not legal.

[BillyMac]

I'm sorry guys, but I'm just a little confused by this thread.

A1 is dribbling the ball, and decides to pick up his dribble with two hands firmly on the ball, thus ending the dribble. Defender B1 reaches in and attempts to steal the ball from A1, but A1 is able to pull the ball away from B1 and B1 is only able to lightly touch the ball. A1 does not lose the ball, but is able to keep two hands on the ball. Three-quarters of a second later, A1 decides to start a new dribble. I've got an illegal dribble violation here. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Now let's get really "weird" here. A2 picks up her dribble, thus ending the dribble. During a pivot, A2 somehow fumbles the ball, which takes a few bounces on the floor, and also accidentally hits defender B2 in the back of the leg. A2 now picks up the ball. A2 decides at this point to start a new dribble. What do you have here?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

You haven't given us enough information. Did B1's touch cause A1 to lose player control?

That was my point. Did it or didn't it? That's kind of the whole issue on this thread.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm sorry guys, but I'm just a little confused by this thread.

A1 is dribbling the ball, and decides to pick up his dribble with two hands firmly on the ball, thus ending the dribble. Defender B1 reaches in and attempts to steal the ball from A1, but A1 is able to pull the ball away from B1 and B1 is only able to lightly touch the ball. A1 does not lose the ball, but is able to keep two hands on the ball. Three-quarters of a second later, A1 decides to start a new dribble. I've got an illegal dribble violation here. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Now let's get really "weird" here. A2 picks up her dribble, thus ending the dribble. During a pivot, A1 somehow fumbles the ball, which takes a few bounces on the floor, and also accidentally hits defender B2 in the back of the leg, before A1 re-establishes possession of the ball. A2 decides at this point to start a new dribble. What do you have here?

BillyMac, each of the provisions of 4-15-4 is SUFFICIENT to end the dribble -- it's never the case that you need all of them or even more than one. So once the dribble ends for ANY reason, it's illegal to start a new dribble.

So in your first play, the dribble ends by 4-15-4(a). When the player holding the ball begins a new dribble, the second dribble is illegal. The provisions of 4-15-4(d) -- and the opponent touching the ball -- don't enter this play, since the dribble has already ended before an opponent touches the ball.

Your second play meets the requirements of 9-5-3, and is thus a legal dribble.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Your second play meets the requirements of 9-5-3, and is thus a legal dribble.

NFHS 9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 . . . A try for field goal.
ART. 2 . . . A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 . . . A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

mbyron: Thanks.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

That was my point. Did it or didn't it? That's kind of the whole issue on this thread.

In all honestly, I don't think that's the issue at all in this thread. The reason I say that is that bainsey's original question was prompted by the test question in Post #4; and that question tells us that player control was never lost. So the issue in the thread is not whether player control was lost, but whether an opponent's touch of the ball -- without loss of control by the dribbler -- ends the dribble.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS 9-5: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 . . . A try for field goal.
ART. 2 . . . A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 . . . A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

mbyron: Thanks.

Your welcome.

Notice that 9-5-3 is satisfied when the passed or fumbled ball touches or is touched by another player. That player need not be an opponent.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Your welcome.

This kind of mistake is not expected from you!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That would not work. They clarified that if the ball is touched by an opponent, then the dribble has ended. So that sentence would be wrong.

Peace

Originally Posted by mbyron

Reference, please. The plain language of 4-15-4(d) backs up bainsey:

"The dribble ends when...
(d) The ball touches or is touched by an opponent and causes the dribbler to
lose control."

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess I cannot imagine you touching the ball and not losing the dribble. I would think based on the rhythm of the action that would be disrupt that action and cause some sort of control loss. And I would not use a statement that might apply to a very rare situation where control is not lost. Stick with the rule and stop always trying to find a term that applies to everything. Very rare is that going to ever apply.

Peace

Please just admit that you were wrong about the rule, for once, and then move on.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This kind of mistake is not expected from you!

Apologies. We have a new baby in the household, and I'm operating on limited sleep.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Apologies. We have a new baby in the household, and I'm operating on limited sleep.

At what point does it become an old baby?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

At what point does it become an old baby?

You tell me, you old baby.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You tell me, you old baby.

Lot of truth in that. I wake up about 6 times a night crying and having to go pee.

Congratulations, Mike, and enjoy the hell out of him/her. Boy or girl?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Apologies. We have a new baby in the household, and I'm operating on limited sleep.

Congrats! And yes, right now, sleep is more prescious than a plum assignment.