Question @Drive to the Basket

[asdf]

Originally Posted by DLH17

Absolutely. And, I hear you...a foul is a foul is a foul.

A1 has the ball in transition at the center jump circle, A3 & A4 are at the free throw line ahead of A1.

B1 is guarding A1. All other B players are still in the backcourt.

Seeing the advantage, A1 attempts to pass the ball to A3. During the pass, but before the ball has left A1's hand, B1 fouls A1 across the arm. The foul, while obvious, does nothing to change the speed or trajectory of the pass to A3. A3 has an uncontested layup with A4 there to clean up the action. The closest B player is 40 feet away.


"A foul is a foul is a foul" ?

No way........ Same Camron's response....

If it doen't affect the offensive player's advantage, then why would you take the advantage away?

Classic game stopper.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by asdf

Seeing the advantage, A1 attempts to pass the ball to A3. During the pass, but before the ball has left A1's hand, B1 contacts A1 across the arm. The contact, while obvious, does nothing to change the speed or trajectory of the pass to A3. A3 has an uncontested layup with A4 there to clean up the action. The closest B player is 40 feet away.

Calling it a foul when it wasn't a foul is part of the problem.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Calling it a foul when it wasn't a foul is part of the problem.

In the context of the subject at hand, I think most people would know what the heck I was talking about.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by asdf

A1 has the ball in transition at the center jump circle, A3 & A4 are at the free throw line ahead of A1.

B1 is guarding A1. All other B players are still in the backcourt.

Seeing the advantage, A1 attempts to pass the ball to A3. During the pass, but before the ball has left A1's hand, B1 fouls A1 across the arm. The foul, while obvious, does nothing to change the speed or trajectory of the pass to A3. A3 has an uncontested layup with A4 there to clean up the action. The closest B player is 40 feet away.


"A foul is a foul is a foul" ?

No way........ Same Camron's response....

If it doen't affect the offensive player's advantage, then why would you take the advantage away?

Classic game stopper.

Would agree...no foul in this case.

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Would agree...no foul in this case.

Agreed...I'm passing on that one. No brainer.

(Yes, it's a foul - but would be poor GM to blow on that one.)

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by DLH17

Agreed...I'm passing on that one. No brainer.

(Yes, it's a foul - but would be poor GM to blow on that one.)

If it's a foul, why don't you blow the whistle? A good official never "passes" on a foul, especially in the name of "game management".

Or, is it really contact that never caused a disadvantage? If so, then it's not a foul, and there's nothing to call.

A subtle but important difference. In asdf's play, he said "B1 fouls A1 across the arm." Then the official needs to call it, because a foul occurred. If, however, the true meaning was "B1 contacted A1's arm, and the pass was not affected", then the contact was ruled incidental, a foul did not occur, and therefore there was nothing to call.

A foul is a foul, period. Contact, however can be incidental, or it can be a foul. If it's incidental contact, then there's no foul. Words, and their specific meanings, are important.

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

If it's a foul, why don't you blow the whistle? A good official never "passes" on a foul, especially in the name of "game management".

Or, is it really contact that never caused a disadvantage? If so, then it's not a foul, and there's nothing to call.

A subtle but important difference. In asdf's play, he said "B1 fouls A1 across the arm." Then the official needs to call it, because a foul occurred. If, however, the true meaning was "B1 contacted A1's arm, and the pass was not affected", then the contact was ruled incidental, a foul did not occur, and therefore there was nothing to call.

A foul is a foul, period. Contact, however can be incidental, or it can be a foul. If it's incidental contact, then there's no foul. Words, and their specific meanings, are important.

I agree. It would def have to be classified as "incidental" contact. And, we move on.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

If it's a foul, why don't you blow the whistle? A good official never "passes" on a foul, especially in the name of "game management".

Or, is it really contact that never caused a disadvantage? If so, then it's not a foul, and there's nothing to call.

A subtle but important difference. In asdf's play, he said "B1 fouls A1 across the arm." Then the official needs to call it, because a foul occurred. If, however, the true meaning was "B1 contacted A1's arm, and the pass was not affected", then the contact was ruled incidental, a foul did not occur, and therefore there was nothing to call.

A foul is a foul, period. Contact, however can be incidental, or it can be a foul. If it's incidental contact, then there's no foul. Words, and their specific meanings, are important.

How about if B1 in the course of trying to stop A1's pass to A3 knocks A1 to the floor, yet the pass is still on target? B1 displaced A1 which by definition, is a foul.....

You killing this?

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by asdf

How about if B1 in the course of trying to stop A1's pass to A3 knocks A1 to the floor, yet the pass is still on target? B1 displaced A1 which by definition, is a foul.....

You killing this?

If that isn't a classic example of incidental contact, I don't know what is.

Seriously, though, that is probably a HTBT type of play.

[asdf]

Now, if B3, B4, and B5 are in the front court and A1 is knocked down, we are going to get a foul, thus demonstrating that a foul is not always a foul.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by asdf

B1 displaced A1 which by definition, is a foul.....

As defined where?

[asdf]

Originally Posted by just another ref

As defined where?

Are you suggesting that displacement is not illegal personal contact?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by asdf

How about if B1 in the course of trying to stop A1's pass to A3 knocks A1 to the floor, yet the pass is still on target? B1 displaced A1 which by definition, is a foul.....

You killing this?

I'm not commenting on a series of "what-if'" plays, I'm commenting on your specific usage of words. In your original question, you said B1 fouls A1 across the arm. Then, it's simple - blow the whistle because you determined a foul occured. But again, if you are simply envisioning a play where B1 contacts A1's arm during the pass, and the pass is not affected because A3 was able to score easily, then most of us would agree that the contact was incidental, and therefore a foul did not occur.

In your play you appear to use the term "foul" interchangeably with "contact", and that would be incorrect usage. That also causes a lot of misconceptions. We never "pass" on a foul; we do however, judge some contact to be incidental, and thus a foul has not occured. That's where the phrase "A foul is a foul" comes in - it does not mean the same contact should be ruled a foul every single time. It simply means we never "pass" on fouls, even though we may rule contact to be incidental, and thus no foul occured.

Can you understand the difference?

[asdf]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I'm not commenting on a series of "what-if'" plays, I'm commenting on your specific usage of words. In your original question, you said B1 fouls A1 across the arm. Then, it's simple - blow the whistle because you determined a foul occured. But again, if you are simply envisioning a play where B1 contacts A1's arm during the pass, and the pass is not affected because A3 was able to score easily, then most of us would agree that the contact was incidental, and therefore a foul did not occur.

In your play you appear to use the term "foul" interchangeably with "contact", and that would be incorrect usage. That also causes a lot of misconceptions. We never "pass" on a foul; we do however, judge some contact to be incidental, and thus a foul has not occured. That's where the phrase "A foul is a foul" comes in - it does not mean the same contact should be ruled a foul every single time. It simply means we never "pass" on fouls, even though we may rule contact to be incidental, and thus no foul occured.

Can you understand the difference?

My examples of "what if's" are very likely to happen in a game.

The contact by B1 on A1 is exactly the same, the immdiate result (the pass) is the same, yet in one example A has a distinct advantage and in the other A has no advantage.

Pass on the foul in the former, but do not pass on the later.