Jump stop vs "up and down"

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say what?

The original post said that "Player A1 ENDS his dribble and JUMPS OFF ONE FOOT IN AN APPARENT ATTEMPT TO TRY FOR GOAL."

A1's attempt was to try for goal!

After ending the dribbler, A1 under NFHS rule 4-44-2 could either have established a pivot foot or landed on both feet simultaneously without establishing a pivot foot.

If A1 established a pivot foot, NFHS rule 4-44-3(b) says "After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot, if the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

If A1 didn't establish a pivot foot after ending his dribble, NFHS rule 4-44-4(a) says "After coming to a stop where neither foot may be a pivot, one or both feet may be lifted, but mat not be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

Traveling in both cases.

You people are confusing the end of the dribble with the player going airborne to shoot.

One has nothing to do with the other. He ended the dribble with one foot on the floor. He jumped, presumably to shoot, but then for whatever reason chose not to shoot. Instead, he landed simultaneously on both feet.

Legal play.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

He ended the dribble with one foot on the floor.

He jumped, presumably to shoot, but then for whatever reason chose not to shoot. Instead, he landed simultaneously on both feet.

Legal play.

Can you cite a rule that backs up your statement that the above is a legal play? I've cited several that say that it isn't.

1) A1 ENDED the dribble. After ENDING the dribble, A1 now either has a pivot foot or he has two feet on the floor with neither being a pivot foot. It is now illegal by the rules that I cited in both cases for A1 to jump and then have a foot return to the ground before letting the ball go on a pass or shot. It doesn't matter whether A1 landed in a jump stop either. That's completely irrelevant by rule.

What you're trying to say is that a player can end a dribble, and AFTER ending that dribble, he can then continue on and do a jump stop. Don't think so. You can end a dribble with a jump stop, but you can't legally do a jump stop after ending a dribble.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Can you cite a rule that backs up your statement that the above is a legal play? I've cited several that say that it isn't.

1) A1 ENDED the dribble. After ENDING the dribble, A1 now either has a pivot foot or he has two feet on the floor with neither being a pivot foot.

Not true.

4-44-2b: If one foot is on the floor, it is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.

My understanding is that this never happened in the play at hand.

[APG]

Casebook 4.44.2 Situation A: Dribbler A1 catches the ball with the right foot touching the floor and then jumps off that foot and alights on both feet simultaneously: (a) with feet parallel; or (b) with one foot in advance. Ruling: the positions of the feet has no significance, but they must come to the floor simultaneously. In both (a) and (b), it is a violation if A1 pivots on either foot.

In the ruling, A1 catches the ball with the right foot on the floor ending his dribble per 4-15-4(a) which states the dribble ends when "the dribbler caches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands." A1 then jumps off his right foot and lands with both feet simultaneously.

Isn't that a case of a player ending his dribble and continuing on with a jump stop?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Casebook 4.44.2 Situation A: Dribbler A1 catches the ball with the right foot touching the floor and then jumps off that foot and alights on both feet simultaneously: (a) with feet parallel; or (b) with one foot in advance. Ruling: the positions of the feet has no significance, but they must come to the floor simultaneously. In both (a) and (b), it is a violation if A1 pivots on either foot.

In the ruling, A1 catches the ball with the right foot on the floor ending his dribble per 4-15-4(a) which states the dribble ends when "the dribbler caches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands." A1 then jumps off his right foot and lands with both feet simultaneously.

Isn't that a case of a player ending his dribble and continuing on with a jump stop?

To most of us, yes.

[Mark Padgett]

Here's how I see it. If it looks like a travel, walks like a travel and quacks like a travel - it's a travel.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Can you cite a rule that backs up your statement that the above is a legal play? I've cited several that say that it isn't.

1) A1 ENDED the dribble. After ENDING the dribble, A1 now either has a pivot foot or he has two feet on the floor with neither being a pivot foot. It is now illegal by the rules that I cited in both cases for A1 to jump and then have a foot return to the ground before letting the ball go on a pass or shot. It doesn't matter whether A1 landed in a jump stop either. That's completely irrelevant by rule.

What you're trying to say is that a player can end a dribble, and AFTER ending that dribble, he can then continue on and do a jump stop. Don't think so. You can end a dribble with a jump stop, but you can't legally do a jump stop after ending a dribble.

I think you may be imagining a different play than the rest of us.

Plus, ending the dribble occurs the moment A1 catches the ball. After that, A1 may still execute a jump stop...that is basicaly the whole point of the referenced sections in the travel rule. The ending of the dribble doesn't preclude a subsequent jumpstop. If that were so, all jump stops would be illegal.

Note the part in red above. This is NOT the play being discussed. If, as you describe, A1 had established a pivot foot (by having the other foot touch the floor) or by executing a jump stop (having two feet on the floor with neither being a pivot) then it would certainly be illegal for A1 to jump and then land on either foot.

However, in the play at hand, that is not the sequence of events. The jump being discussed is before the 2nd foot touches and before both feet are on the ground after a jump stop....it is the jump part of the jump stop.

The question at hand is whether, during an otherwise legal jumpstop, can a player think about shooting (maybe even make arm motions that resemble the start of a try) and still complete the jump stop by landing.

[mbyron]

The move in the OP has to be legal. It's the same sequence as a jump stop. The definition of a jump stop does not mention whether a try intervenes between the moment the player has 1 foot on the floor and the moment when he has 2.

I'm with JAR and Camron here.