Pick and Roll Rule

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Judtech

SNAQ I used the phrase 'basketball play' to infer that after the screen the cutter did nothing illegal. I can see how it can be taken as a non sequitor and apologize for any confusion. I can concede when I have misspoken, but I do not think that is the case here. Misunderstood, sure, misquoted absolutely, Ms America....welll...

Let's try this quotation thing again so I can pinpoint for you where I think you misspoke.

Originally Posted by Judtech

To me the key is what the screener is doing. IF the screener rolls straight to the basket, this, IMO, is a basketball play and any contact would be incidental. If they are 'faking' a roll to the basket and the contact is obstructing the defender then I would be inclined to put a whistle on it.

Each sentence here is wrong, IMO.
It doesn't matter what the screener's intent is; only what the result is.

I'm not sure of any other way to read the word "any" hear than the way we have. With the word "inclined" (that I cut out), it seems to us you are alluding to your final sentence, where you'd have a whislte only if you think he was "faking a roll to the basket." Our point is, regardless of whether he was rolling to the basket or not, if he obstructs the defender without meeting the requirements of a legal screen, it's a foul.

Again, it doesn't matter what he's trying to do or if he's just faking it. Even if he's rolling to the basket, if he illegally gets into B1's path and physically prevents B1 from getting to his desired spot, it's a foul. He's not a "cutter," there's no such animal in the rules, he's a screener and must do it legally.

Had I been the only one to misread your post, or had Jurassic been the only one to misread your post, or had jar been the only one to misread your post, or had Camron been the only one to misread your post..... See the pattern? These are people who do not agree all the time on details, yet they all read you the same.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Let's try this quotation thing again so I can pinpoint for you where I think you misspoke.



Each sentence here is wrong, IMO.
It doesn't matter what the screener's intent is; only what the result is.

I'm not sure of any other way to read the word "any" hear than the way we have. With the word "inclined" (that I cut out), it seems to us you are alluding to your final sentence, where you'd have a whislte only if you think he was "faking a roll to the basket." Our point is, regardless of whether he was rolling to the basket or not, if he obstructs the defender without meeting the requirements of a legal screen, it's a foul.

Again, it doesn't matter what he's trying to do or if he's just faking it. Even if he's rolling to the basket, if he illegally gets into B1's path and physically prevents B1 from getting to his desired spot, it's a foul. He's not a "cutter," there's no such animal in the rules, he's a screener and must do it legally.

Had I been the only one to misread your post, or had Jurassic been the only one to misread your post, or had jar been the only one to misread your post, or had Camron been the only one to misread your post..... See the pattern? These are people who do not agree all the time on details, yet they all read you the same.

I accept that. I can see that I used some terms and verbage that may be confusing and that is obviously not my intent. "Fake a screen" "Revolving Door pivot" "any v all" and a few others are terms I have been taught and I use, so I wasn't trying to be overly clever. This is a type of play that, at least to me, is more easily demonstrated on the court than typed on a forum. Thank you for pointing out what is causing confusion and why. I will try to strip away most of the verbosity and simply ask questions that will help with my need for clarification.

When is a screener no longer a screener? I think this might be where there could be some differences opinion. I am not asking what is a legal screen and what isn't.

To me, obstruction is a vague term. It may not be for others and that is fine. There can be legal or illegal obstructions. Which leads my thought process to look at a play like this and determine if the defender can't "get to his spot" because of poor defense on their part or because of an illegal obstruction on the offenses part.

If a player is not a screener then what word would be better to describe them? I use the word cutter b/c the player is now cutting to the basket.

If an offensive player is not a screener, wouldn't they have the same right to a spot on the floor as the defensive player on a "first come first served" basis?

Ok, so it was like 3 1/2 questions with one comment! Thanks for the help

[Adam]

Even a screener has the same rights to a spot on the floor. Any player getting in the path of an opponent is either a screener or a guard. If his team has the ball, he can't be a guard.
So, after the initial screen, when the screener cuts to the basket, he may become a screener again if his movement places him in the path of a defender.
I'm not there to judge poor defense or poor offense, so even if the defender is a bit slow, it doesn't matter.

The problem is, the pick and roll is often taught as a seal off type move, where the screen rolls in such a way as to seal off the defender by moving into and obstructing his path. That's typically a foul, and just because the screener has his hands up looking for a pass doesn't mean he isn't guilty of an illegal screen.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So, after the initial screen, when the screener cuts to the basket, he may become a screener again if his movement places him in the path of a defender.
I'm not there to judge poor defense or poor offense, so even if the defender is a bit slow, it doesn't matter.

The problem is, the pick and roll is often taught as a seal off type mov, where the screen rolls in such a way as to seal off the defender by moving into and obstructing his path. That's typically a foul, and just because the screener has his hands up looking for a pass doesn't mean he isn't guilty of an illegal screen.

Yeah, we agree on the second part, which is what I meant be 'faking a roll'. Although some players just do it on their own without being taught!!

The first part is where we may disagree. This is where it may get complicated to explain via typing. If the 'former screener' is going north and south in their cut to the basket, and the person defending the ball is going east to west (or probably northeast to southswest) their paths are most likely going to cross. I would interpret that point to go to whoever gets there first as opposed to a illegal/moving screen.

And I apprecitate your concern for those defenders who are a little slow. If only some of my coaches had been so understanding. However, speed has a lot of bearing in this type of play, because the defensive player has to be quick enough to get around the screen and recover. And/or they would have to beat the offensive player 'to the spot'. This is why I often just yelled "Switch"!!

[Pantherdreams]

We've got a local team who likes to run and gun so any offensive stuff in the 1/2 court tends to be of the hot potatoe variety trying to get a quick shot. In these situations they will constanly run what their coach calls "blur" action. It is basically a foot ball like crossing pattern with two players on diagonal routes which at some point leads too: two offensive players bumping or two defensive players bumping or 1 of the defensive players going under in order to create space for the other to move through. As soon as one defender changes his run or is caught up this player immediately dives at the ball while the other continues on their line to exit.

Ivariably you see recovering players needing to run around their own teammate or the offensive cutter to recover and occaisionally run into one or both of these people in the attempt. I was of the opinion when I first started wathcing it that their had to be an illegal screen/block/ something in there that wasn't right.

9 times out of ten though it is the potential contact or contact that is simply incidental that seems worse then it is because of poor decision making or communication by the defense leading to the situation. Not anythign illegal occuuring. In the time where the are holding or pushing I'm calling an offensive foul, but if their is nothing more then a regular player recovering through a mess then normal its play on. When I have someone complain I'll often tell them that their needs to be contact impeding them to make a call not just them caught standing there going "thats illegal".