Pick N roll or Moving Screen

[TigerBball]

I coach 7th grade boys and whenever I teach a screen and roll, one of them always questions whether moving after contact is legal.

I tell them if they are pivoting and using their backside to contact the defender, they are OK, but if they keep facing the defender and move both their feet to keep him pinned, it is going to be a foul.

My problem, this explanation is just from my experience. How do all of you differentiate between a screen and roll, and a moving pick.

Just trying to teach my boys the proper way, I appreciate the help.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by TigerBball


I tell them if they are pivoting and using their backside to contact the defender, they are OK, but if they keep facing the defender and move both their feet to keep him pinned, it is going to be a foul.

Coach, pivoting and then using their backsides is illegal. The screener has to hold their position on the "pick" part of a "pick 'n' roll" until they feel the contact, then roll. Or "roll" without contact. If they pivot and roll before the contact, it's usually an illegal screen. Whether it gets called or not is another story.

[wizard]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
[/B]

If they pivot and roll before the contact, it's usually an illegal screen. Whether it gets called or not is another story. [/B][/QUOTE]

How can it be illegal if there is no contact?

What are we thinking "using their backside" means? If it means the screener pivots then moves out the defender with his backside, then we have a foul. If it means the screener pivots then holds his position, I don't see how this can be a foul.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by wizard

If they pivot and roll before the contact, it's usually an illegal screen. Whether it gets called or not is another story. [/B]

How can it be illegal if there is no contact?

What are we thinking "using their backside" means? If it means the screener pivots then moves out the defender with his backside, then we have a foul. If it means the screener pivots then holds his position, I don't see how this can be a foul.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Jurrasic is assuming that 7th grade boys aren't going to wait for contact before they roll. They're just going to go through the motions regardless of what else happens. That's a pretty safe assumption, I think, and applies to 7th grade girls, too, I should add. In fact, without good coaching, most players are going to fall into this category. What he's saying is that it's illegal to run into position and then keep moving in an attempt to screen their player, whether that continued movement is more steps or a roll move. The screen must wait in position until contact, and can then roll as the screen-ee tries to get around him. If the screen-ee backs off and never makes contact, the screener can do whatever he or she jolly well feels like, and shouldn't be called.

I'd like to add a tangential editorial on the subject of the player(B1) the screen-ee is guarding, most often the dribbler. If B1 doesn't move fairly near the screen, so that the screen-ee has no choice but to confront the screener, that's when it's most likely there will be a moving screen. What I see a lot of in Middle School girls, is B1, whether it's a dribbler or the star shooter headed for her sweet spot to receive the ball, running through the play as it's designed. She's got a guard right on her, in legal guarding position. The screener gets into position and waits patiently. B1 swings around the screen, maybe a little wide, or perhpas the screener isn't quite on the X on the floor, and the defender is just running right through a nice ilttle hole in the offense. Now the screener leans, or steps in, or even reaches across to try and stop the defender. The foul is very easy to call.

The problem is that the screener thinks it's her job to stop the defender, but that's not correct. It's her job to give the playmaker an opportunity to lose the defender. If the playmaker doesn't rub shoulders with the screener, the defender can slip right between and there's no problem. THE BURDEN IS ON THE PLAYMAKER. I think a lot od coaches don't realize what the problem is, and they don't know who to talk to. Screens won't need to move, if the playmaker will do her part to run the play correctly.

[Edited by rainmaker on Apr 2nd, 2004 at 08:50 AM]

[JRutledge]

We might understand that (as officials), but the individual that is asking the question does not. Not only should their be contact on a screen, there should be displacement as well. I do not know many legal screens that do not have contact, even when moving.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Not only should their be contact on a screen, there should be displacement as well.

Jeff, I would word this a little differently, just because the word "should" can be so confusing. I'd say, "In order to call an illegal screen, you should wait for contact, and for displacement, as well." Just for the record, I wouldn't wait for displacement. Most contact by an illegal screener gets called, at least at the levels I work. It's a matter of helping the kids develop good habits. But I can see that you work several levels above me, and at that amount of skill, a certain amount of contact may not be worth calling. But I want Tiger to know how 7th grade boys are supposed to do it.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rainmaker
The screener gets into position and waits patiently. B1 swings around the screen, maybe a little wide, or perhpas the screener isn't quite on the X on the floor, and the defender is just running right through a nice ilttle hole in the offense. Now the screener leans, or steps in, or even reaches across to try and stop the defender. The foul is very easy to call.

This is a great point. Many illegal screens are the fault of the ballhandler, who does not use the screen properly. The ballhandler allows the defender to stay with him/her by leaving too much space around the screen. So to do his/her "job", the screener is forced to do something illegal in order to get the defender off of the ballhandler.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rainmaker


Jeff, I would word this a little differently, just because the word "should" can be so confusing. I'd say, "In order to call an illegal screen, you should wait for contact, and for displacement, as well." Just for the record, I wouldn't wait for displacement. Most contact by an illegal screener gets called, at least at the levels I work.

I still would want displacement at the levels I work. Because if a screener comes over to make a screen and it is illegal, I feel that the "screeny" should make some attempt to get around the screen. If they give up the position and just back off, if there is contact or not, I am not calling a foul. And even in the rules is suggests that displacement still needs to be present on any screen. But that does not mean you have to have a lot of contact to do so either.

Originally posted by rainmaker
It's a matter of helping the kids develop good habits. But I can see that you work several levels above me, and at that amount of skill, a certain amount of contact may not be worth calling. But I want Tiger to know how 7th grade boys are supposed to do it.

I understand about making them have good habits, but we do not help them by calling things automatically that we will never call when they get a few years older. Understand 7th graders are only 2 years away from HS. I do feel that you cannot call a game exactly the same (type of contact I am referring to) as compared to a HS game. But you cannot fundamentally call something you would not call in other aspects of the game. A player that is screened needs to know that he or she should have to run thru the screen to some extent to get a foul called in their favor. And if they are displaced in any way, then we have a foul. But just a roll away move is not in itself a foul. Not unless they are pushed out of the way to some extent.

But then again, it is hard imagining the play being described without seeing it for myself.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by wizard

If they pivot and roll before the contact, it's usually an illegal screen. Whether it gets called or not is another story. [/B]

How can it be illegal if there is no contact?

What are we thinking "using their backside" means? If it means the screener pivots then moves out the defender with his backside, then we have a foul. If it means the screener pivots then holds his position, I don't see how this can be a foul.

[/B][/QUOTE]I don't think that I did say that. However, I meant that contact while the screener is moving as in the coach's example is an illegal screen.

Now, maybe you can explain something to me. You stated " If the screener pivots and then holds his position, I don't see how this can be a foul". If the screener pivots into the defender's path, and then the contact occurs even though the moving defender wasn't enough given time or distance to avoid that contact-just because the screener WAS stationary when that contact occurs, you are saying that this isn't an illegal screen? Right? Rule 10-6-3(c)- "A player who screens shall not take a position so close to a moving opponent that this opponent cannot avoid contact by stopping or changing direction". That's exactly why the screener using his butt in the coach's example is usually an illegal screen.

I edited this to remove a sarcastic remark- one that I had no business making in the first place. It was out of line in this thread.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Apr 2nd, 2004 at 09:33 AM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I edited this to remove a sarcastic remark- one that I had no business making in the first place. It was out of line in this thread.

Good job, Jurassic. Get in touch with that inner parent!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Good job, Jurassic. Get in touch with that inner parent!

The only thing that I got "inner" is a buncha organs that are wasting away. And no smart remarks about outer organs doing the same either, Woman!

Wimmen!

[TigerBball]

So, lets define the sitch a little better. A1 sets legal screen facing B2, A2 uses screen well, B2 runs right into screen. B1 switches to A2, thus creating the opportunity to roll. But as I coach, I do not like my guy to roll and release the defender, because then the defender can catch up to the play. I want them to roll and pin (hold) the defender with their backside, like a block out. Thus creating space between the basket and A1 with B2 behind.

Now, as the pass is made, A1 will move toward the pass and hopefully have a nice lane to the hoop.

So is the pivoting and pinning, with contact all the way, but without displacement, just holding the defender in one spot legal.

[Hawks Coach]

Tiger
I think you are stating it the way I teach it. Hold position until contact. At contact, B2 stops because of the contact. A1 then immediately executes a reverse pivot establishing a new position on the court, and holds that poistion. That position may be in slight contact with the defender, but should not cause displacement.

When I teach the screen then pivot (or as I teach it, screen then open to the ball), the pivot should happen before defender starts to move into that open space, or it will be a moving screen. So it is screen, hold til contact, pivot immediately on contact to a new position that is advantageous to the offensive player. Pivot after defense stops and before defense reacts and begins to move again, because pivoting into a moving defender and hindering that movement is a foul.

[TimTaylor]

Originally posted by TigerBball
So, lets define the sitch a little better. A1 sets legal screen facing B2, A2 uses screen well, B2 runs right into screen. B1 switches to A2, thus creating the opportunity to roll. But as I coach, I do not like my guy to roll and release the defender, because then the defender can catch up to the play. I want them to roll and pin (hold) the defender with their backside, like a block out. Thus creating space between the basket and A1 with B2 behind.

Now, as the pass is made, A1 will move toward the pass and hopefully have a nice lane to the hoop.

So is the pivoting and pinning, with contact all the way, but without displacement, just holding the defender in one spot legal.

If B2 alters his path and A1 pivots into him to block him from "catching up" to the play, I'm almost sure to call the foul unless hesitation by B2 lets A1 clearly get position first - not likely at this level.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I always thought the purpose of a pick & roll was to force a switch and thereby create a 2 on 1 situation for the offense, leaving the screened defensive player a step behind the play. It would seem to me that having the screener block out to hold the screened defender instead of releasing to become part of the offensive attack would give up that advantage.

In the 10+ years I coached GS/MS boys & girls, I taught the screener to always follow their teammate with the ball with their eyes, turning head and body as needed - then go to the basket & look for the pass. This helps them hold the screen until contact, then forces them to pivot away from contact with the screened defensive player and puts them in optimum position to become part of the offensive atack to get the pass if their defender switches - creating the desired 2 on 1 situation.

FYI, to combat the pick & roll on defense, teach your players how to hedge & recover.......

[zebraman]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I still would want displacement at the levels I work. Because if a screener comes over to make a screen and it is illegal, I feel that the "screeny" should make some attempt to get around the screen. If they give up the position and just back off, if there is contact or not, I am not calling a foul. And even in the rules is suggests that displacement still needs to be present on any screen. But that does not mean you have to have a lot of contact to do so either.
Peace

I don't think that NFHS rules indicate that there needs to be displacement at all on an illegal screen for it to be a foul. In fact, it's pretty clear in reading about screens in the rule book and case book that merely impeding the progress of an opponent with an illegal screen is a foul. If the defensive player is put at a disadvantage by an illegal screen and can no longer stay with his/her player due to even slight contact, it's a foul. There is much less contact required to gain an advantage on a screen then there is on other plays where we choose to pass on some contact such as rebounding action where the contact does not prevent the "right player" from getting the rebound.

Z