Defensive Blind Screen?

[KCRef]

B1 scores a basket, and A1 throws in to A2. A5 is jogging up the court (still in his backcourt), looking back at his teammate with the ball. B5 is facing A5, and has obtained a LGP with plenty of steps infront of A5. A5 collides into B5, and they both go down. Is there any foul? I say no.

I believe that it would be similar to when the offense sets a blind screen for his teammate that has the ball. If the defense never sees the screen, then there is no foul when they collide.

[Pantherdreams]

I think I would have to take this on a case by case basis but my first instinct is I've gotta call something here if it in anyway effects the ongoing play.

Its tough for me to no call a player holding their ground in the middle of the floor legally so no one can come through getting run over by the offense who had plenty of time and space to avoid them.

I'm interested on other people's take on this.

[Adam]

By rule, as long as the screened player stops or attempts to stop upon contact, the contact is to be ruled incidental. The screener is to expect contact, and the contact may be severe.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

By rule, as long as the screened player stops or attempts to stop upon contact, the contact is to be ruled incidental. The screener is to expect contact, and the contact may be severe.

+1

The intent of the defender setting the screen has been met. Whether either or both player subsequently goes down isn't relevant as long as the criteria for a legal screen were met.

You need illegal contact to have a foul.

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by KCRef

B1 scores a basket, and A1 throws in to A2. A5 is jogging up the court (still in his backcourt), looking back at his teammate with the ball. B5 is facing A5, and has obtained a LGP with plenty of steps infront of A5. A5 collides into B5, and they both go down. Is there any foul? I say no.

I believe that it would be similar to when the offense sets a blind screen for his teammate that has the ball. If the defense never sees the screen, then there is no foul when they collide.

LGP and blind screen are two different situations. in the OP, B5 has obtained LGP in front of A5. Contact. Down goes B5. I've got a TC foul on A5. B's ball at spot nearest foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

LGP and blind screen are two different situations. in the OP, B5 has obtained LGP in front of A5. Contact. Down goes B5. I've got a TC foul on A5. B's ball at spot nearest foul.

So you're saying screening rules apply only to the offense?
Basically, when screening/guarding a player without the ball, screening rules apply.

[vbzebra]

crap, now I'M confused

When guarding a player without the ball, time and distance are a factor for LGP, and based on OP, guard had LGP with plenty of time and space for A5 to move out of the way. I don't think we can penalize B5 with a block/no call for A5 crashing into him when A5 has his head turned. I would have a TC foul on A5 b/c B5 established LGP with enough time/distance for A5 to move, but A5 did not.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

crap, now I'M confused

When guarding a player without the ball, time and distance are a factor for LGP, and based on OP, guard had LGP with plenty of time and space for A5 to move out of the way. I don't think we can penalize B5 with a block/no call for A5 crashing into him when A5 has his head turned. I would have a TC foul on A5 b/c B5 established LGP with enough time/distance for A5 to move, but A5 did not.

It's a screen, so rule 4-40-7 is the one to look at here.

[vbzebra]

but isn't the screenER moving here, not the screenEE? A blind screen is when the screenER is stationary and the screenEE is moving backwards, right? Here, the defender is stationary, and the screenER is moving blindly.

By the way, who's on first?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

1. but isn't the screenER moving here, not the screenEE? A blind screen is when the screenER is stationary and the screenEE is moving backwards, right? Here, the defender is stationary, and the screenER is moving blindly.

2. By the way, who's on first?

1. I think you're confusing "screener" for offensive player. In this play, the defense is attempting to set a screen. There's nothing in the definition of screen that requires it to be offensive.

"A screen is legal action by a player who, without causing contact, delays or prevents an opponent from reaching a desired position." (4-40-1)

2. Exactly!

[Pantherdreams]

Maybe I'm confused but the play described is not a screen. The player defending A5 (B5) is waiting in the middle of the floor with LGP when A5 runs into him and knocks him over.

If B5 was standing in the middle of the paint and A5 ran into his chest bowling him over on cut to the basket it would be a foul, it really should be here too.

The original post said it reminded him of the action that happens on a blind screen on offense, but this isn't a screen this is a defender holding space they are entitled too.

[vbzebra]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Maybe I'm confused but the play described is not a screen. The player defending A5 (B5) is waiting in the middle of the floor with LGP when A5 runs into him and knocks him over.

If B5 was standing in the middle of the paint and A5 ran into his chest bowling him over on cut to the basket it would be a foul, it really should be here too.

The original post said it reminded him of the action that happens on a blind screen on offense, but this isn't a screen this is a defender holding space they are entitled too.

+100!

That was what I meant, you just said it better! I'm embarrased to say I'm a communications major

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

The original post said it reminded him of the action that happens on a blind screen on offense, but this isn't a screen this is a defender holding space they are entitled too.

Which is a screen.

It's the picturebook definition of screen. Or are you saying there's some sort of requirement that a screen be set by the offense?

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Which is a screen.

It's the picturebook definition of screen. Or are you saying there's some sort of requirement that a screen be set by the offense?

But is is also LGP, standing around minding your own buisness, covering your area in the zone, playing helpside defense, etc etc. But yes it is also the same position you could use to set a screen, but on defense the intent is to occupy a space so that the offense can't pass through it (granted same as a screen) . . .

so at what point does knocking someone down and off the spot gain a clear path to the rim, to take their spot, or to generally just knock them around become a foul on the offense??? I would agree you would be expected to endure some contact but if the player continues through you knocking you off your spot to the ground it wouldn't it become a foul a some point, even on a screen???

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

so at what point does knocking someone down and off the spot gain a clear path to the rim, to take their spot, or to generally just knock them around become a foul on the offense??? I would agree you would be expected to endure some contact but if the player continues through you knocking you off your spot to the ground it wouldn't it become a foul a some point, even on a screen???

Absolutely, the caveat here is that the screened player must attempt to stop upon contact. If he just runs through, it's a foul.

And for the record, if he knocks the screener to the floor, it had better be quite obvious that he attempted to stop, because I'm going to lean towards a foul unless his attempt to stop is very very obvious.