NCAA Rules that NFHS or State Associations should try out?

[bradfordwilkins]

Where is Diagram 1?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

Where is Diagram 1?

Are you talking about this one DIAGRAM :: Diagram #1: Comparison of Notation from Figure #2 and Figure #3?

Or this one http://www.outdoorphotogear.com/blog..._Diagram_1.gif?

[Mark Padgett]

Maybe he meant "Diaphragm 1". Hope not.

[chseagle]

My reasoning for asking about what rules from NCAA that the NFHS &/or State Associations should adopt is cause of the fact that I had heard after Washington State added the Boys' Shot Clock, it was to better prepare the players to college play. By adopting the NCAA rules for high school play, the players would not be at a disadvantage when it came to playing at the college level, & you'd see more Freshmen playing college level than you do now.

Concerning the questions about the stoppage of clock in final minute after made basket & having to add time, not all scoreboard controls have the capability to do the tenths of a second entry (the operator has to input the next second higher & be precise on when to stop the time).

How many of the rules/regulations that the NCAA uses do the NBA, WNBA, & FIBA use?

As I see it the rules should be universal throughout all levels.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by chseagle

As I see it the rules should be universal throughout all levels.

I agree. Second graders should not be allowed to do any pregame dunkng. All officials should strictly enforce this rule. I don't care if they cry when you "T" 'em up.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I agree. Second graders should not be allowed to do any pregame dunkng. All officials should strictly enforce this rule. I don't care if they cry when you "T" 'em up.

And it would be OK for a second-grade player to call you a mofo, just like the NBE players.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I agree. Second graders should not be allowed to do any pregame dunkng. All officials should strictly enforce this rule. I don't care if they cry when you "T" 'em up.

LMAO How many 2nd graders can actually dunk?

Another reason why I am asking is cause of the fact that (OT as it's another sport) bowling here in the US is under one overall governing body for all levels. So everyone is under the same rules/guidelines no matter the experience level when it comes to league play/tournaments.

I can see there being rules differences for street ball or unofficiated "wreck" ball, but for officiated play everyone should be playing under the same rules.

I realize this may seem unfair to the grade school aged youth, however they have to learn somehow.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And it would be OK for a second-grade player to call you a mofo, just like the NBE players.

just like the NBE Players that get fined for such actions, what would the fine be like if a 2nd grader did such a thing?? No recess for a week, no allowance for a month??

Let the punishment fir the crime LMAO.

On a serious note, by having everyone playing under the same rules/guidelines/regulations, more fair play would be happening in every game as everyone would have an equal chance to win or lose, no matter the level.

Of course, there would be the disparities because of different people having different skill/experience levels, as is always the norm.

[eyezen]

I would be an advocate for having the clock stop under a minute. Seems counter intuitive but it would help speed up the last minute of some games under certain scenarios where it would preclude the need to take a TO or worse TOs plural for solely getting the clock stopped. The rest would take about the same. I cant see where it would take longer that would be of any great consequence.

Originally Posted by Anchor

Rules like restricted area, clock stoppage under a minute, etc., are not for team or game betterment, but to showcase individual talent and for the fans. "

Please explain as it pertains to the bolded part?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by chseagle

My reasoning for asking about what rules from NCAA that the NFHS &/or State Associations should adopt is cause of the fact that I had heard after Washington State added the Boys' Shot Clock, it was to better prepare the players to college play. By adopting the NCAA rules for high school play, the players would not be at a disadvantage when it came to playing at the college level, & you'd see more Freshmen playing college level than you do now.

Concerning the questions about the stoppage of clock in final minute after made basket & having to add time, not all scoreboard controls have the capability to do the tenths of a second entry (the operator has to input the next second higher & be precise on when to stop the time).

How many of the rules/regulations that the NCAA uses do the NBA, WNBA, & FIBA use?

As I see it the rules should be universal throughout all levels.

While i am all in favor of a unified rules set, you arguments for doing so have no merit. There will be the same number of spots open on college teams each year...changing to a shot clock doesn't make teams have more openings. Perhpas you were refering to having more of the existing freshman playing more time...not help there either as the sophomores/juniors/seniors will still be more experienced and shot clock familiarity is certainly not the biggest factor in playing time.

How many possessions, in an average HS game, do you really see lasting more than 35 seconds w/o a shot? Very few. I've worked many games that would have never come close to a shot clock violation. The shot clock will only affect a small number of players/games anyway.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

While i am all in favor of a unified rules set, you arguments for doing so have no merit. There will be the same number of spots open on college teams each year...changing to a shot clock doesn't make teams have more openings. Perhpas you were refering to having more of the existing freshman playing more time...not help there either as the sophomores/juniors/seniors will still be more experienced and shot clock familiarity is certainly not the biggest factor in playing time.

How many possessions, in an average HS game, do you really see lasting more than 35 seconds w/o a shot? Very few. I've worked many games that would have never come close to a shot clock violation. The shot clock will only affect a small number of players/games anyway.

Cameron,

Here in Washington State, before the shot clock was adopted, there were several games (both regular season & post-season games) that would of had very different outcomes had the shot clock been in use. I've seen it happen when I was Boys' Basketball Manager as well as a bystander, when a team would just pass the ball around for a minute or more without even making a shot attempt just to tire out the defense or run out the clock cause of their lead.

Yes now on average, the offensive plays last maybe 20 seconds on average, however the shot clock has caused the game to be faster paced. Before the shot clock, the plays averaged about 30-35 seconds (except on fast breaks or poor defense).

Concerning freshmen playing on college squads, sure experience counts, however how can a person not get experience unless they are allowed to play under those rules from the very beginning.

How often are the best players not those with experience but with the drive & determination to learn to better both themselves & the team (to gain more experience)? Freshman, as well as sophmores have more to prove to both the team as a whole, & the coach. They are less experienced, but they are wanting to play for the team & the coach. Juniors & Seniors have basically proven themselves, so more often than not, they're playing to just better themselves, not the team.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Why would you want to reduce the penalty for a technical foul at the high school level?

Technical fouls are supposed to be a deterrent against unsporting conduct, especially at the high school level. That's why a loss-of-ball was included in the penalty for a "T". And it seems that it's almost an annual occurrence to have an NFHS POE issued about having incidents of unsporting conduct reduced. And yet you're proposing a rule that has a chance of promoting or increasing those incidents by reducing the penalties for them? That doesn't make sense to me, Jeff.

Any coach...or player.... with half a brain is just gonna wait until his team has the ball before he goes off on us.

the same reason the NFHS changing the penalty for excessive swinging of the elbows from a T to a simple violation.....nobody was calling this play because it was a T - a VERY harsh penalty. By making it a violation - with far less consequences (you simply lose the ball), officials are calling it.

do you know why the NFHS keeps listing unsporting behavior as a POE every year?.....it's because the problem doesn't get any better. the current rule in place now is not working.

you get a T - it's 2 shots for the other team and we get the game moving again....I would wager a lot of money that if this rule changed were implemented, we would see the # of T's called go up - and the quality of the game improve.

[Pantherdreams]

I'm not really in favour of rule changes or modifications that get more T's called.

We recently (last 2 years) had rules adapted so more things were considered unsportsmanlike behaviour = technical foul. Things like fouls before the ball has left the inbounders hand, any foul from behind or on the side of a player breaking away, hand in the face, yelling at the shooter, all these things are now T's.

In my experience its created a grey area that our local coaches struggle to deal with and as a result have a harder time dealing with us and managing their own kids. We are lucky to have very few jerk coaches in our area and for the most part (in the past) when kids would recieve a tech coaches in our area would deal with the unsportsmanlike behaviour (arguing, swearing, taunting) on the spot and bench the kid for a period of time or in some cases the remainder of the game on their own. They had very stringent team and school policies in regards to kids recieving T's. There was also never any debate over whether the T was deserved.

Now coaches are having to decide whether they feel the T was actually unsportsmanlike or just a unfortunate call based on the rules phrasing and their kids playing hard. Now you've got kids in the with T's you wouldn't normally have playing and in jeporady of getting a second inadvertantly and getting ejected. You have coaches debating that it wasn't unsportsmanlike angles, timing etc. Which obviously filters down to the crowd and players. Not too mention a T noe being a T in the eyes of kids, fans and coaches causing a lot more justification at least in people's minds.

Not that I have an issue with dealing with it personally, it just seems that making a T less meaningful could cause you problems as it has us. That being said we've only got technical fouls, intentional fouls, and personal fouls. So your varying levels of flagrant, technicals, etc may help deal with this issue.

[Reffing Rev.]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

How many possessions, in an average HS game, do you really see lasting more than 35 seconds w/o a shot? Very few. I've worked many games that would have never come close to a shot clock violation. The shot clock will only affect a small number of players/games anyway.

This season I worked a game, the H team was unranked, V team ranked in top 10. H team played hard and was only down by three halfway through the 2nd quarter, when their best player picked up his 2nd foul and coach put him on the bench. Then, down by 3 with 4:13 on the clock their guard got the ball and stood just across the division line until there was 10 seconds left, then they ran an isolation for last shot.

And you know the best part the V team was complaining the whole time but not willing to come within 16 feet much less 6 feet to do anything about it.

IMO if officials could figure out how far 6 feet really is, we'd have no need for a shot clock.

(That was the easiest 4 minutes of basketball I've ever officiated)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

In my experience its created a grey area that our local coaches struggle to deal with and as a result have a harder time dealing with us and managing their own kids.

Now coaches are having to decide whether they feel the T was actually unsportsmanlike or just a unfortunate call based on the rules phrasing and their kids playing hard. Now you've got kids in the with T's you wouldn't normally have playing and in jeporady of getting a second inadvertantly and getting ejected. You have coaches debating that it wasn't unsportsmanlike angles, timing etc. Which obviously filters down to the crowd and players. Not too mention a T noe being a T in the eyes of kids, fans and coaches causing a lot more justification at least in people's minds.

You're spending way too much time worrying about what coaches, players and even the freaking fans think. Way too much! Who gives a damn what they think? We have completely different goals out there. They care who wins. We don't.

It's our job to ensure that the game is played in a safe, sporting manner. We react to the actions of others. And imo if you don't take any crap from the players and coaches, they will adjust to you in one helluva big hurry. And conversely, if you want to try and reason with coaches and players instead of just simply busting them when they deserve it, you'll be spending one heckuva lot of time and breath trying to convince people who are unconvincable.

Paralysis through analysis.....again. See unsporting conduct---> call unsporting conduct. It's that simple.

Unfortunately, it seems that it's always easier to make up reasons not to call a warranted technical foul than it is to just go ahead and call it.