Disqualification Substitution ???

[BillyMac]

A bunch of us were watching three of our local colleagues work a state semifinal game and noticed something that got our attention.

Late in the game, home team player picks up his fifth foul. Disqualification is reported to the home coach and to the player. The twenty second time period to replace a disqualified player begins. After five seconds, the warning horn sounds. Five seconds before the final horn sounds to end the twenty second time period to replace, a visiting team player reports to substitute and the official doesn't allow him to enter the game because the warning horn had sounded. A second later, before the horn sounds to end the twenty second time period to replace, a home team player reports to substitute for the disqualified player and is beckoned into the game, leaving the visiting team substitute sitting on the "X" until the next clock stopped, dead ball, situation.

Several of us believed that the official incorrectly treated this situation as a time out, using the warning horn as the cutoff for "voluntary" substitutions. Most of us sitting in the "peanut gallery" decided that the twenty second time period to replace a disqualified player should not be treated as a time out, and that "voluntary" substitutions should be treated as in any other clock stopped, dead ball, situation.

But further discussion led to some questions. What if the next live ball after the fifth foul was going to be two free throws as the penalty for that fifth foul? Would all substitutes be beckoned into the game until the ball was at the disposal of the free thrower, or would just the substitute for the disqualified player, and any other player who reported before the warning horn, or final horn, be beckoned into the game?

Comments? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A bunch of us were watching three of our local colleagues work a state semifinal game and noticed something that got our attention.

Late in the game, home team player picks up his fifth foul. Disqualification is reported to the home coach and to the player. The twenty second time period to replace a disqualified player begins. After five seconds, the warning horn sounds. Five seconds before the final horn sounds to end the twenty second time period to replace, a visiting team player reports to substitute and the official doesn't allow him to enter the game because the warning horn had sounded. A second later, before the horn sounds to end the twenty second time period to replace, a home team player reports to substitute for the disqualified player and is beckoned into the game, leaving the visiting team substitute sitting on the "X" until the next clock stopped, dead ball, situation.

Several of us believed that the official incorrectly treated this situation as a time out, using the warning horn as the cutoff for "voluntary" substitutions. Most of us sitting in the "peanut gallery" decided that the twenty second time period to replace a disqualified player should not be treated as a time out, and that "voluntary" substitutions should be treated as in any other clock stopped, dead ball, situation.

But further discussion led to some questions. What if the next live ball after the fifth foul was going to be two free throws as the penalty for that fifth foul? Would all substitutes be beckoned into the game until the ball was at the disposal of the free thrower, or would just the substitute for the disqualified player, and any other player who reported before the warning horn, or final horn, be beckoned into the game?

Comments? Inquiring minds want to know.

Billy:

It does not matter whether the penalty for the personal foul is a throw-in or free throws (one, one-and-one, two, or three), V6 can enter the game when H6 enters the game. By rule, V6 can enter the game before H6 reports, but the anal retentive engineer in me just will not let me let V6 enter the game before H6 has reported to replace H5.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. I answered your question without climbing up into the attic.


ROCK CHALK JAYHAWK KaaaayyyyUUUUUUUU!!!!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Billy:

It does not matter whether the penalty for the personal foul is a throw-in or free throws (one, one-and-one, two, or three), V6 can enter the game when H6 enters the game. By rule, V6 can enter the game before H6 reports, but the anal retentive engineer in me just will not let me let V6 enter the game before H6 has reported to replace H5.

I would do the same thing, Mark, mainly because I'm going to focus on making sure H6 gets to the table in time; beckoning in other subs would take my focus away slightly.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It does not matter whether the penalty for the personal foul is a throw-in or free throws (one, one-and-one, two, or three), V6 can enter the game when H6 enters the game. By rule, V6 can enter the game before H6 reports.

Who can enter the game after H6 enters? Before two free throws, can anybody enter, at any time, up until the point where the free thrower has the ball at his disposal?

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Who can enter the game after H6 enters? Before two free throws, can anybody enter, at any time, up until the point where the free thrower has the ball at his disposal?

If the sub is waiting, bring him in when the disqualified player's replacement reports.

If we are ready to administer FT#1, then leave the sub until the next shot.

As someone already mentioned, these rules were changed for speed, so don't delay what we're doing. In all, who really cares when somebody is in. All they are doing is standing along the lane.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by sseltser

If the sub is waiting, bring him in when the disqualified player's replacement reports. If we are ready to administer FT#1, then leave the sub until the next shot.

So any substitution after the disqualified player's replacement reports must wait until after the first of two free throws? Sounds good, but, per my usual modus operandi, citation please?

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So any substitution after the disqualified player's replacement reports must wait until after the first of two free throws? Sounds good, but, per my usual modus operandi, citation please?

3-3-1-C: EXCEPTION: When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game.

A6 is waiting at the table. B1 commits his 5th foul. When B6 comes to enter for B1, allow A6 to enter due to 3-3-1-C-Exc.

After that and when we are ready to allow A1 to soot, A7 comes to the table. I say that A7 should wait because the exception says "have legally reported" which means that they would have had to legally report prior to the other player being replaced. Maybe mbyron can check my sentence breakdown of that exception.

I don't think this is a big deal. If you make them wait, they still just come in for the final FT. If you let them in, they get to stand there while somebody else shoots. Any reason why we are getting picky over it?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

ROCK CHALK JAYHAWK KaaaayyyyUUUUUUUU!!!!

Go Jayhawks!

Go home, that is.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Go Jayhawks!

Go home, that is.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Billy, there's a case play that specifies to let them all in if you're letting in a sub for a DQd player. The whole point of the rule is to speed the game up when possible, but if you're letting a player in anyway, let them all in.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Billy, there's a case play that specifies to let them all in if you're letting in a sub for a DQd player. The whole point of the rule is to speed the game up when possible, but if you're letting a player in anyway, let them all in.

Snaqwells: Thanks. I can't find the casebook play you referred to, but I did find this rule during my search:

3-3-1-C: During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls, substitutions may be made only before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been converted. EXCEPTION: When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game.

So this would apply not only to substitutions during a disqualification, but also to a substitution for an injured player?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Snaqwells: Thanks. I can't find the casebook play you referred to, but I did find this rule during my search:

3-3-1-C: During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls, substitutions may be made only before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been converted. EXCEPTION: When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game.

So this would apply not only to substitutions during a disqualification, but also to a substitution for an injured player?

Guess I was mistaken, it's an actual rule. I reserve the right to backtrack again if the case play is found. I can't find my rule book.

[Back In The Saddle]

I believe you are correct.

Between quarters, at halftime and during a time-out, the substitute must report or be in position to report to the scorer, prior to the warning signal which is sounded 15 seconds before the end of the intermission or the time-out.

The NFHS has repeatedly and clearly indicated the 20 second replacement period is not a time out.

The prohibition against entering the game before the first of two free throws has the following exception: "When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game." Note there is no restriction regarding horns, only that the substitute legally reported.

Other than the specified before-the-horn restrictions, and free throw substitution restrictions, all other substitutions are governed by this: "If entry is at any time other than between quarters, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the scorer shall use a sounding device or game horn, if, or as soon as, the ball is dead and the clock is stopped."

Now, if I were the rulemaker king, I would also add that during the 20 second replacement period, any subs that report to the table must be held at the table until the replacement player checks in, then they all go in together. That would, in theory at least, eliminate potentially confusing horns during the 20 second period, and is a logical extension of the basic guideline disallowing any other activity (e.g., time outs) until the replacement is complete. In practice, however, I've never had a problem when a sub has reported during the 20 seconds.

Just my $0.02