Officials Uniform Problems

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The state patch is just as idiotic, far as I'm concerned. We don't have one here. I like having no patch on a shirt at all.

I agree with you, BTW, but we always have tried to match flag or no flag. Maybe I'll give that up at some point.

I'm going to disagree with you Rich, as it shows you're properly licensed, otherwise any chooch can go to Dick's, buy a shirt and start 'reffing' which some do on maverick park district stuff. It's very noticable here if you don't have a patch. Another patch of pride is a state final patch which the lucky ones wear and it's also worn with pride. The IHSA in Illinois is a very large and strong association which requires a few things to become licensed. It may sound corny, but I'm proud to wear that patch.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I'm going to disagree with you Rich, as it shows you're properly licensed, otherwise any chooch can go to Dick's, buy a shirt and start 'reffing' which some do on maverick park district stuff. It's very noticable here if you don't have a patch. Another patch of pride is a state final patch which the lucky ones wear and it's also worn with pride. The IHSA in Illinois is a very large and strong association which requires a few things to become licensed. It may sound corny, but I'm proud to wear that patch.

If you've got chucklheads buying shirts and reffing, there's nothing to stop them from getting an IL state patch on their shirt.

The last time I wore a shirt without the IAABO patch (I was matching my unpatched partner in a JV game), some stiff in the stands yelled out, "go back to school and get your patch!" It made me laugh.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The state patch is just as idiotic, far as I'm concerned. We don't have one here. I like having no patch on a shirt at all.

I agree with you, BTW, but we always have tried to match flag or no flag. Maybe I'll give that up at some point.

Originally Posted by fullor30

I'm going to disagree with you Rich, as it shows you're properly licensed, otherwise any chooch can go to Dick's, buy a shirt and start 'reffing' which some do on maverick park district stuff. It's very noticable here if you don't have a patch. Another patch of pride is a state final patch which the lucky ones wear and it's also worn with pride. The IHSA in Illinois is a very large and strong association which requires a few things to become licensed. It may sound corny, but I'm proud to wear that patch.

I disagree with Rich and agree with full completely. And if we really want to be honest, wearing a flag on an official’s uniform is very inappropriate. We are not governmental employees and we are not in the military. And half the time we have a flag on the uniform you get into a debate as to which way the stars are going on the flag in relationship to the front of the jersey. At least the state patch represents something from the state and is appropriate for what we are doing. Let governmental people wear the flag. I am not representing the country by working a high school basketball game (or any other sport for that matter).

It is so noticed that when I have worked AAU games (which it is not required to wear any patch) in this state, I have been accused of not being a licensed official.

I also agree with the pride thing, because you often see IHSA officials in NF publications wearing their state patch. The current patch is not as big as it used to be and does not stand out that much, but if you do not wear one everyone seems to notice.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I also agree with the pride thing, because you often see IHSA officials in NF publications wearing their state patch. The current patch is not as big as it used to be and does not stand out that much, but if you do not wear one everyone seems to notice.

Peace

Six years of being a reciprocal official and nobody ever asked about my lack of a patch. I sure wasn't putting one on for the 8-10 games a season I'd work, mostly around the holidays.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Wearing a flag on an official’s uniform is very inappropriate. We are not governmental employees and we are not in the military.

Rutledge: Are you referring to The United States Code Title 36 Chapter 10 Article 176 J:

No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.

I did not have the honor and privilege of serving my country, but my late father served in WWII, fought his way across Africa and Italy, and received a medal for his participation in the Battle of Rome Arno. In his honor, and in his memory, I proudly wear a flag patch on my laboratory coat at work. If I'm doing something wrong, then they can come and arrest me.

Our local board started wearing flag patches during the first Persian Gulf War. Recently there has been some discussion regarding all our members wearing a gold trimmed flag patch, often described as being a, "military flag", that should only be worn by military personnel.

Discussions like this regarding the appropriateness of wearing, or not wearing, a flag patch are not just petty "code" debates, but, rather, are reminders to all of us about the importance of a symbol of our freedom, that some take for granted as they move through our everyday lives. Citizens of North Korea, Iran, and other oppressive countries, could be arrested for just discussing the appropriateness of wearing, or not wearing, a flag patch.

[tomegun]

I don't necessarily like wearing a flag and I would think I have earned the right to wear one or not. Trust me when I tell you, what someone wears does not mean they are willing to support that symbol until the end. I came across countless people in the military that have more business being in jail than serving the country. And some of the people I talk about are high-ranking officials.

If someone doesn't want to wear the flag, they shouldn't wear it.

I will need those retirement checks to keep coming though.

[grunewar]

I wear the flag with gold trim on my left shoulder because my Association told me it was part of my uniform. End of story for me. If they tell me next year to take it off, then that's what I would do.

But, as have others, I served my country proudly for a great many years and am honored to wear it.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by grunewar

But, as have others, I served my country proudly for a great many years and am honored to wear it.

I did too, but IMO a flag is a symbol. My contributions, a fraction of a fraction of the big picture, directy contributed to the safety of this country. That is what I wear (figuratively of course).

Fly, Fight and Win!!!

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Recently there has been some discussion regarding all our members wearing a gold trimmed flag patch, often described as being a, "War flag", that should only be worn by military personnel.

I've heard this claim made several times but have never see any actual documentation to back it up.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I've heard this claim made several times but have never see any actual documentation to back it up.

Here's the easy answer:
The gold trim is found on ceremonial flags, to be used indoors and for ceremonies only. They originally were used on military flags. The fringe has no specific significance, but is considered completely within the guidelines of proper flag etiquette. There is nothing in the flag code indicating that the fringe is for federal government flags only. The Internet contains many sites that claim that the fringe indicates martial law or that the Constitution does not apply in that area. These are entirely unfounded and should be dismissed as urban legends, usually citing Executive Order 10834 and inventing text that is not part of the order.

Here's the more complex answer:
The United States Military Flag With The Gold Fringe
FLAG Martial Law; "Pursuant to 4 U.S.C. chapter 1, §§1, 2, & 3; Executive Order 10834, August 21, 1959; 24 F.R.6865; a military flag is a flag that resembles the regular flag of the United States, except that it has a YELLOW FRINGE border on three sides. The president of the United States designates this deviation from the regular flag, by executive order, and in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief.
President, Dwight David Eisenhower, by Executive Order No.10834, signed on August 21, 1959 and printed in the Federal Register at 24 F.R. 6865, pursuant to law, stated that: "A military flag is a flag that resembles the regular flag of the United States, except that it has a Yellow Fringe border on three sides."
Display Of Military Flag
National flags listed below are for indoor display and for use in ceremonies and parades. For these purposes the United States flag will be rayon banner cloth, trimmed on three sides with golden yellow fringe, 2 1/2 inches wide. It will be the same size as the flags displayed or carried with it.
Any courtroom that displays these flags behind the Judge is a military courtroom. You are under military law and not constitutional law, or common law, or civil law, or statute law.
Unauthorized use of official flags, guidons, and streamers. Display or use of flags, guidons, and streamers or replicas thereof, including those presently or formerly carried by U.S. Army units, by other than the office, individual, or organization for which authorized, is prohibited except as indicated in below.
Use only by recognized United States Army division associations . . . ." United States Army Regulation AR 640-10, October 1, 1979
According to Army Regulations, (AR 840-10, Oct. 1, 1979.) "the Flag is trimmed on three sides with Fringe of Gold, 2 1/2 inches wide," and that, "such flags are flown indoors, ONLY in military courtrooms." And that the Gold Fringed Flag is not to be carried by anyone except units of the United States Army, and the United States Army division associations."
The Authority For Fringe On The Flag Is Specified In Army Regulations, But Only For The National (Military) Flag !
The U.S. Attorney General has stated: "The placing of a gold fringe on the national flag, the dimensions of the flag, and the arrangements of the stars in the union are matters of detail not controlled by statute, but are within the discretion of the President as Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy . . . ancient custom sanctions the use of fringe on regimental colors and standards, but there seems to be no good reason or precedent for its use on other flags . . . the use of such a fringe is prescribed in current Army Regulations, No. 260-10." (See 34 Ops. Atty. Gen. 483 & 485) The only statute or regulation, in the United States, prescribing a yellow fringed United States flag is Army Regulation No. 260-10, making it a military flag.
By Army Regulation 260-10, The Gold Fringe May Be Used Only On Regimental "Colors," The President's Flag, For Military Courts Martial, And The Flags Used At Military Recruiting Centers. "A Military Flag Emblem Of A Nation, Usually Made Of Cloth And Flown From A Staff; From A Military Standpoint Flags Are Of Two General Classes...Those Flown From Stationary Masts Over Army Posts, And Those Carried By Troops In Formation.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Rutledge: Are you referring to The United States Code Title 36 Chapter 10 Article 176 J:

No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.

I did not have the honor and privilege of serving my country, but my late father served in WWII, fought his way across Africa and Italy, and received a medal for his participation in the Battle of Rome Arno. In his honor, and in his memory, I proudly wear a flag patch on my laboratory coat at work. If I'm doing something wrong, then they can come and arrest me.

Our local board started wearing flag patches during the first Persian Gulf War. Recently there has been some discussion regarding all our members wearing a gold trimmed flag patch, often described as being a, "military flag", that should only be worn by military personnel.

Discussions like this regarding the appropriateness of wearing, or not wearing, a flag patch are not just petty "code" debates, but, rather, are reminders to all of us about the importance of a symbol of our freedom, that some take for granted as they move through our everyday lives. Citizens of North Korea, Iran, and other oppressive countries, could be arrested for just discussing the appropriateness of wearing, or not wearing, a flag patch.

Billy,

My father is currently buried in a military cemetery in Memphis, Tennessee. So I do take this rather seriously. And my father served in Korea and his tombstone reflects his service. I do not fell in principle that we should be wearing them on officiating uniforms. Now what others do is their right to do. I am not going to be critical or judge those that do not agree with my position that is the beauty of the country. I just feel patriotism is more than wearing a flag on your shoulder or uniform.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I just feel patriotism is more than wearing a flag on your shoulder or uniform.

Agree.

[Welpe]

Well that's about the closet I've seen, so thanks for posting that Billy. Since US Army regulations do not apply to civilians in most circumstances, I am dubious as to their application outside of a military setting. This is a moot point to me anyways as I do not wear a flag on my uniform but I always find it to be a curious debate.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Well that's about the closet I've seen, so thanks for posting that Billy.

Billy came out of the closet? No images, please.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I'm going to disagree with you Rich, as it shows you're properly licensed, otherwise any chooch can go to Dick's, buy a shirt and start 'reffing' which some do on maverick park district stuff. It's very noticable here if you don't have a patch. Another patch of pride is a state final patch which the lucky ones wear and it's also worn with pride. The IHSA in Illinois is a very large and strong association which requires a few things to become licensed. It may sound corny, but I'm proud to wear that patch.

It sounds corny. Sorry. The barrier to entry just isn't that great to warrant a patch. I had a drawer full of them (the IHSA kept sending them when I was a reciprocal official and I kept throwing them in a drawer, but I gave them to someone).