Houston We Have A Problem!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

They were in response to a specific comment:



I'm not sure why we had a long discussion on a point that was already perfectly clear and covered by the casebook virtually word for word. Without going back and rereading the OP, I thought MAYBE (based on the above referenced comment) that a discussion on that situation might be helpful. That was the reason I posted what I did.

Sounds like I misread your intent then. For that I apologize. Note that I did say that your points were well taken though, fwiw.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I wasn't aware that there were any such situations. They always sit side-by-side or I don't let the game start.

(Well, that's not quite true. Once, the H scorer buzzed me to the table in the middle of the first quarter to point out that the V scorer wasn't sitting next to him. I made the scorers moved. Since it took a while, I gave the teams an officials time out.)

For example: last night before Girls' JV, the Home coach, said he wanted the scorebook right next to the home bench, tried arguing the point with him but like talking to a brick wall. I never thought of bringing the officials in to get the table setup with the books side-by-side. If that happens at one of the final 2 games, I'll do that instead of letting it slide.

It was for reasons like this that I did the thread on how the table should be set up. As before this year, when I was doing the Sub-V games, the books would always be right next to their benches.

It's also been cause of the books being next to their benches (& lack of proper training) that when I'm Scoreboard Operator/Timer, that I've been doing the AP instead of the scorer.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I wasn't aware that there were any such situations. They always sit side-by-side or I don't let the game start.

(Well, that's not quite true. Once, the H scorer buzzed me to the table in the middle of the first quarter to point out that the V scorer wasn't sitting next to him. I made the scorers moved. Since it took a while, I gave the teams an officials time out.)

What if the V coach doesn't want his/her scorer moved? They want their scorer close to their bench so they can communicate, then what?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What if the V coach doesn't want his/her scorer moved? They want their scorer close to their bench so they can communicate, then what?

I generally have the table setup where it's shot clock, scoreboard/timer, home book (official scorer), then visiting scorebook.

The shot clock is next to the home bench, with the visiting scorebook next to their bench.

However yesterday, the Home JV Coach disliked the setup and said that his scorebook was to be next to the bench, so technically the Home JV Coach was going against rules/regulations by not having the Official Scorer taking care of the AP.

Could this be considered a T for not following through with rules/regulations?

[Adam]

No.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I wasn't aware that there were any such situations. They always sit side-by-side or I don't let the game start.

(Well, that's not quite true. Once, the H scorer buzzed me to the table in the middle of the first quarter to point out that the V scorer wasn't sitting next to him. I made the scorers moved. Since it took a while, I gave the teams an officials time out.)

In the main gym (V games) the table setup is generally, the shot clock (next to home bench), scoreboard/timer, Home (official) scorebook, & visiting scorebook.

In this setup during the V games, it's the official scorer that does handle the AP as per rules/regulations.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by chseagle

For example: last night before Girls' JV, the Home coach, said he wanted the scorebook right next to the home bench, tried arguing the point with him but like talking to a brick wall. I never thought of bringing the officials in to get the table setup with the books side-by-side. If that happens at one of the final 2 games, I'll do that instead of letting it slide.

It was for reasons like this that I did the thread on how the table should be set up. As before this year, when I was doing the Sub-V games, the books would always be right next to their benches.

It's also been cause of the books being next to their benches (& lack of proper training) that when I'm Scoreboard Operator/Timer, that I've been doing the AP instead of the scorer.

Is there something that I can do, to ensure the books are sitting side-by-side, without getting the officials involved? Can I actually quote rules/regulations to the coach(es)?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Is there something that I can do, to ensure the books are sitting side-by-side, without getting the officials involved? Can I actually quote rules/regulations to the coach(es)?

If you want to fight this battle, it's up to you. Don't be surprised, though, if you get shot down and/or replaced. It's not worth it.

Also, the rule says the scorer is "responsible" for the possession arrow. It doesn't say he has to be the one who physically controls it. IMO, he's "responsible" for it just as the HC is "responsible" for the conduct of his bench personnel.

My advice: relax.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If you want to fight this battle, it's up to you. Don't be surprised, though, if you get shot down and/or replaced. It's not worth it.

Also, the rule says the scorer is "responsible" for the possession arrow. It doesn't say he has to be the one who physically controls it. IMO, he's "responsible" for it just as the HC is "responsible" for the conduct of his bench personnel.

My advice: relax.

True, they are supposed to keep track of the AP via the scorebook, however in my case, that isn't even happening.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, for the V games, the scorer does actually physically control it.

Though, isn't there a bit of an argument there about who is to be physically in control of the AP? In "Instructions to & Duties of the scorer for basketball games" states under equipment:

"Scorebook, pencils, possession arrow & signaling device with sound different from that of the timer. The scorebook must be available for inspection at the table from 10 minutes prior to game time until the referee has approved the final score."

Under During the course of the game, it states:

"1. The nonofficial scorers should check each entry with the official scorebook.
2. The scorers should:
a. Announce to each other & record the total running score.
b. Announce the name & number of the player who scores.
c. Verify the scoreboard score.
d. Compare the summary of individual scores with the total running score at the end of each half.
e. Exchange the name & number of the player committing a foul & indicate the total fouls charged to the player.
f. Be responsible for the alternating-possession arrow.
g. Record warnings reported by an official.
3. In case of controversy, the record of the official scorebook is
accepted unless the referee has knowledge which permits him or her to rule otherwise."

[Adam]

As I said, "responsible" doesn't necessarily mean physically moving it. While it may or may not be a best practice, depending on your set-up, it's not required. Around here, the arrow is often located directly in front of the clock console; meaning the timer has it like it or not.

Aside from all that, there's no prescribed penalty for failing to adhere to all of this. You certainly couldn't penalize the coach for making his wishes known, even if they're followed.

It's nothing, live with it and move on.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

As I said, "responsible" doesn't necessarily mean physically moving it. While it may or may not be a best practice, depending on your set-up, it's not required. Around here, the arrow is often located directly in front of the clock console; meaning the timer has it like it or not.

Aside from all that, there's no prescribed penalty for failing to adhere to all of this. You certainly couldn't penalize the coach for making his wishes known, even if they're followed.

It's nothing, live with it and move on.

I am not complaining about doing the AP.

I was just trying make sense of what one document says compared to another document.

uh-oh now I've gone cross-eyed & confused myself

[Adam]

They said the same thing, "scorer is responsible." It just doesn't mean what you think it does.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I never thought of bringing the officials in to get the table setup with the books side-by-side. If that happens at one of the final 2 games, I'll do that instead of letting it slide.

I also find it helpful if someone at the table takes charge and lets me know if s/he observes any thing like uniform infractions, subs not making it all the way to actually touch the X before entering the game, someone not paying attention to the game all the time.

You can solve the books not sitting next to each other and the coach's request to have the book at his end by putting the books on one "level" of the table, and the clocks on another.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Anchor

Game recorded as a tie.

Mark Padgett would agree with you.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I also find it helpful if someone at the table takes charge and lets me know if s/he observes any thing like uniform infractions, subs not making it all the way to actually touch the X before entering the game, someone not paying attention to the game all the time.

You can solve the books not sitting next to each other and the coach's request to have the book at his end by putting the books on one "level" of the table, and the clocks on another.

For the past games, starting with the one that Rookiedude was an official, there's been an "X" taped to the floor. However, I've been observing that not all players are on it when they get called into the game.

Speaking of the "X" on the floor, like I mentioned above, since the Boys' V game that Rookiedude officiated, the "X" has been there in front of the official scorer via athletic tape on the floor. I requested a meeting with the HS Principal via e-mail before the games yesterday, since he was out sick, I met with the vice-principal. I mentioned about the "X" on the floor, he mentioned that plans are in place to redo floor markings & that have an "X" in either purple or gold could be placed in front of the official scorer, instead of using the athletic tape like now.

I had a supplement to the meeting with some rules/regulations excerpts concerning my observations that I wrote & printed out that I handed to the Vice-Principal. He was actively concerned about my observations. Just now gonna wait & see what transpires.