Welmer out...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Are you saying watching tape has no value or less value than people give it? You do understand how much training is gained through watching tape don't you?

I'm saying that to watch tape simply to look for reasons to denigrate another official is not the correct use of the evaluation process.

In this case you're watching tape only to aid you in your quest to dump on Welmer. It has nothing to do with training anybody or helping Welmer become a better official.

Again, just so that you don't misconstrue anything that I've said, that's my opinion.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

But there is a part of this that can't be reduced to an absolute -- unless we prohibit all contact, calls will always be fairly subjective.

True.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) No, and if I ever get the urge to sit down and break down any NCAA official on tape(other than somebody I may know, like and think will appreciate it if I do give him some constructive feedback), I'm going to take something to make the urge go away. Why would I want to waste my time looking for reasons to say to the world that so-and-so is a crappy official? I'll leave that up to you, Tom. I always thought that evaluation by tape was supposed to be a positive process, not an excuse for someone to put down a fellow official. Somehow, I get the idea that your breaking Welmer down on tape might be done a little bit too subjectively.

Well to be honest, the NCAA uses tape to show many bad examples of officiating and also uses it to eliminate people out of the tournament. There is a reason many big name officials only worked one round or none at all in the NCAA Tournament last year.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

3) And I personally completely disagree with those statements. Nobody outside the NBA has a clue whatinthehell "right" is supposed to be. Hell, I've been officiating for 50 years and I couldn't tell anybody if asked what a foul in the NBA is. And yes, I think they'll let the stars get away with traveling, etc. also in the name of the holy "entertainment. My opinion is that the NBA in it's current state is completely unwatchable. It's the WWE with a basketball. And note that 25 years ago, I was a complete NBA junky. It's just doesn't resemble basketball very much anymore in my opinion.

Hey, I agree that it certainly is your right to crap on Welmer every chance that you get. Keep on keeping on.

I think your position on the NBA is no different than what Tommy's opinion is on Welmer. You have an opinion and I think your position on the NBA is really not accurate. For one the NBA is not nearly as physical as college. I think the reason is they have fewer officials to monitor and they can get a handful of guys on the same page or they will find someone else to do it. I also used to be a fan of the NBA but I am not, but it has nothing to do with the officiating. It has everything to do with the style of play for me. But to say that it is so physical is just not true in my opinion. Actually they call a lot of slight contact fouls that you do not see even called at the college level by the big timers. And some of the worst traveling calls or non-traveling calls I see are at the college level.

Again this is my take on your comments, but that is your right to feel that way. I just do not think what you say is totally true. I think a lot of people buy into the media hype of the NBA and that is fine. I just think that perception is not true.

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) No, and if I ever get the urge to sit down and break down any NCAA official on tape(other than somebody I may know, like and think will appreciate it if I do give him some constructive feedback), I'm going to take something to make the urge go away. Why would I want to waste my time looking for reasons to say to the world that so-and-so is a crappy official? I'll leave that up to you, Tom. I always thought that evaluation by tape was supposed to be a positive process, not an excuse for someone to put down a fellow official. Somehow, I get the idea that your breaking Welmer down on tape might be done a little bit too subjectively.

I haven't looked at tape of Welmer. However, after attending several camps and watching tape with my friends it doesn't take a lot of time to tell when someone is officiating by the seat of their pants and when someone has a tried and true method of getting plays right.

Sorry if I'm not willing to drink the Welmer Kool-Aid. I will leave that to you.

[tomegun]

Rut,

While what you are saying is totally true, you are nearly 3,000 posts shy of the credibility to post it.

Of course, I'm being totally sarcastic!

It is par for the course. I have an opinion and I'm dumping on an official. JR has an opinion and it is made to seem as though it came down from the heavens.

All I ask is this: tell me why Welmer is an elite college official and I'm not talking about how coaches, players and an assigner feels. I say that because 1) we are known for giving credibility to what a coach and/or player says when it is good but not when it is bad and 2) the assigners who assign the last games, the tournament, have never thought highly of him.

Could someone make an argument comparing him to officials like Jamie Luckie, Les Jones, Hal Lusk or Pat Adams? I just don't think he compares.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Rut,

While what you are saying is totally true, you are nearly 3,000 posts shy of the credibility to post it.

Of course, I'm being totally sarcastic!

It is par for the course. I have an opinion and I'm dumping on an official. JR has an opinion and it is made to seem as though it came down from the heavens.

All I ask is this: tell me why Welmer is an elite college official and I'm not talking about how coaches, players and an assigner feels. I say that because 1) we are known for giving credibility to what a coach and/or player says when it is good but not when it is bad and 2) the assigners who assign the last games, the tournament, have never thought highly of him.

Could someone make an argument comparing him to officials like Jamie Luckie, Les Jones, Hal Lusk or Pat Adams? I just don't think he compares.

Maybe not, but that makes me question how Hightower has been so successful in the tourney and Welmer hasn't even gotten a sniff of the Final Four. I'm just curious what the powers to be see in Hightower that they don't see in Welmer.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Sorry if I'm not willing to drink the Welmer Kool-Aid. I will leave that to you.

Hey, I've already said that you've got a perfect right to crap on any official that you want. Keep on doing what you do. Shrug.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Maybe not, but that makes me question how Hightower has been so successful in the tourney and Welmer hasn't even gotten a sniff of the Final Four. I'm just curious what the powers to be see in Hightower that they don't see in Welmer.

I don't think Hightower is perfect, but you asked...

Hightower is a "R" and he isn't afraid to make a call that doesn't sit well with the coaches and players. Another example is Dave Libbey. Mr. Libbey wasn't the most PC official, but he took pride in the mechanics - the science - of officiating.

Do you think Hightower and Welmer are equal as play callers?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Could someone make an argument comparing him to officials like Jamie Luckie, Les Jones, Hal Lusk or Pat Adams? I just don't think he compares.

I do not want to get into the names thing. I am just saying that there is something wrong with the system when someone can work the top games every night and not work the tournament. And there is something wrong when someone that is working the Final Four is not always working the top games.

Then again things are changing in the landscape and we will see if that will continue to be the case.

Peace

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Hey, I've already said that you've got a perfect right to crap on any official that you want. Keep on doing what you do. Shrug.

Do you realize how much you use that "crap on officials" line? You crap on NBA officials, but since it comes from you I guess it doesn't count right?

The only thing you are saying is that I'm crapping on Welmer, but you don't have a real counter to what I'm saying.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I don't think Hightower is perfect, but you asked...

Hightower is a "R" and he isn't afraid to make a call that doesn't sit well with the coaches and players. Another example is Dave Libbey. Mr. Libbey wasn't the most PC official, but he took pride in the mechanics - the science - of officiating.

Do you think Hightower and Welmer are equal as play callers?

I don't know. I do know that I can't remember one situation where a coach really lost it with Welmer. Don't know if that's indicative of not making tough calls or just being so widely respected.

I can't really make an educated statement about the 2 of them without watching both of them for that purpose, which is partially why I asked. I do know that on Sunday, I thought Hightower's position as the C (he was frequently higher up than the trail) was a bit odd, but other than that, seemed like a well-called (loosely, too) game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Actually they call a lot of slight contact fouls that you do not see even called at the college level by the big timers.

Again this is my take on your comments, but that is your right to feel that way. I just do not think what you say is totally true.

And I respect your right to have your take also. Some of it I personally agree with and some of it I don't.

With regards to the red-highlighted statement above, I basically agree with that also. But in my opinion NBA officials do not call this type of play consistently. I see it called...and then I see it no-called.....and I see one official calling it and another official letting rape go. It's the inconsistency in calling contact in the NBA that I personally just can't figure out. And I ain't the only one. I think that D1 officials are more consistent within their conferences in calling contact. That said, there is a disparity from conference to conference also, and it's been that way forever.

Jmo also, Jeff.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't know. I do know that I can't remember one situation where a coach really lost it with Welmer. Don't know if that's indicative of not making tough calls or just being so widely respected.

I can't really make an educated statement about the 2 of them without watching both of them for that purpose, which is partially why I asked. I do know that on Sunday, I thought Hightower's position as the C (he was frequently higher up than the trail) was a bit odd, but other than that, seemed like a well-called (loosely, too) game.

Thank you Rich. Thank you for having a normal discussion on the subject. I can't really argue with what you just posted.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

While what you are saying is totally true, you are nearly 3,000 posts shy of the credibility to post it.

Of course, I'm being totally sarcastic!

It is par for the course. I have an opinion and I'm dumping on an official. JR has an opinion and it is made to seem as though it came down from the heavens.

Geeze, Tom, no need to get your panties in a wad just because JR thinks you're full of crap.

Chill.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Geeze, Tom, no need to get your panties in a wad just because JR thinks you're full of crap.

Chill.

JR knows I'm not full of crap. JR just isn't used to people disagreeing with him...or so it seems.

BTW, thongs don't get in a wad!