bad information

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Dbyb

JV-G game. At 3 minutes in the 4th quarter R goes to table and asks for time outs left to each team. Scorer says Home has 0 time outs left and Visitors have 1. R conveys this information to each coach. At 1 minute left, Visitor coach calls a time out. R grants the time out, reports it and has the timer start the clock. Scorer then tells the R that Visitors, in fact, had no timeouts left and that earlier she had made a mistake and should have said Home had 1time out and Visitors had 0. (The 16 year old scorer just reversed the time outs and there was no visitor book to cross check). R now assesses a tech to the Visitors. Visitor coach is understandably upset having taken a time out that she was informed she had and then assessed a tech for not having it. The tech was assessed, both shots made, and she lost by 1 point.

Once the time out had been granted, was there any other option than the one we took?

No.

But, you could have avoided the situation by not telling the coach she had one left. Only inform them when they have zero left.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

But, you could have avoided the situation by not telling the coach she had one left. Only inform them when they have zero left.

This.

I never tell a coach anything regarding timeouts until they have used their final one. There is nothing in the book telling us to inform coaches how many they have when they still have some, and not getting in that habit keeps incidents like this from happening.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

This.

I never tell a coach anything regarding timeouts until they have used their final one. There is nothing in the book telling us to inform coaches how many they have when they still have some, and not getting in that habit keeps incidents like this from happening.

I never tell a coach anything about the timeout situation, and I don't even care to know myself. If one is requested, I'm obligated to grant it. Isn't this the job of their scorekeeper or assistants? Much like I don't care to know to know if a player has no fouls or 4. If I missed in the manual where it's my job to know this stuff, let me know. Wow, do I seem grumpy today?

[Adam]

I got out of that habit a long time ago. When they use their last, I tell them. I don't say anything before that.

[Hartsy]

What happens when you guys tell a coach they have no more TO's, and later they find out they did? Not as bad as using too many, but it's still an issue. That's why I say nothing. Though now I vaguely recall that we are supposed to inform them when they have used their allotment. Please inform.

[Adam]

It's under scorer's duties, 2-11-6, (paraphrasing)
notify a team and its coach, through an official, when that team has been granted its last timeout.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's under scorer's duties, 2-11-6, (paraphrasing)
notify a team and its coach, through an official, when that team has been granted its last timeout.

What a great first topic for the soon-to-be-launched "Table Officials' Discussion Board" ! ! !

[representing]

When it's a game where either coach has been calling time out a lot during the game, I will go over table to check how many times out each team has left during a time out. Around here, some of the scorers know to tell the officials when a team has no timeouts left. I just like to know for reference if a team only has one or two time-outs left, and will let my partner know. I sometimes tell the coach when he/she has no more time outs, sometimes I don't. But I never tell them if they have 1-5 times outs left just because of the risk of this error. Teams should have a scorer (when visiting) to notify them when they are out of TOs. Coaches should also keep track (in V games usually one of the AC does this) or ask the scorer how many time outs they have left when they know they've used up at least 3.

Although it feels injustice, you did do the right thing to assess the T. However, I wouldn't have told the coach she only had one time out left.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's under scorer's duties, 2-11-6, (paraphrasing)
notify a team and its coach, through an official, when that team has been granted its last timeout.

Below is a link to the "Instructions to & Duties of the Scorer for Basketball Games"

http://www.nfhs.org/Workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2867

Under "Notify the Nearer Official" it states:
1. The bonus penalty is in effect for the 7th, 8th & 9th team foul in each half. The bonus display indicates a second free throw is awarded for all common fouls (other than player-control) if the first free throw is successful. The proper bonus panel, such as (H for home & V for visitor) shall be displayed after the penalty for the sixth team foul has been administered. Another method is to activate a light or device nearest the basket of the team which is to receive the bonus.
2. The 10th team foul occurs each half. Thereafter, the bonus (2nd free throw) is awarded for a common foul (except player control) whether or not the first is successful.
3. Any player is charged with his or her 5th foul (personal or technical), the 2nd technical foul is charged to any team member, bench personnel, directly to the head coach, or the 3rd technical foul is charged to the head coach.
4. Either team has been granted its allotted charged time-outs or an excess time-out.
5. The ball is dead or in control of offending players team if:
a. Player has not reported.
b. Player’s number changed.
c. Player is illegally in game.
6. The ball is dead, if there is a score dispute or doubt about an official’s decision.
7. Any player enters while wearing an illegal number.
8. The ball is dead and the clock is stopped or running, if the coach requests that a correctable error as in 2-10, or a timing, scoring or AP mistake be prevented or rectified.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Below is a link to the "Instructions to & Duties of the Scorer for Basketball Games"

http://www.nfhs.org/Workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2867

Under "Notify the Nearer Official" it states:
1. The bonus penalty is in effect for the 7th, 8th & 9th team foul in each half. The bonus display indicates a second free throw is awarded for all common fouls (other than player-control) if the first free throw is successful. The proper bonus panel, such as (H for home & V for visitor) shall be displayed after the penalty for the sixth team foul has been administered. Another method is to activate a light or device nearest the basket of the team which is to receive the bonus.
2. The 10th team foul occurs each half. Thereafter, the bonus (2nd free throw) is awarded for a common foul (except player control) whether or not the first is successful.

I have that document and the NFHS really needs to update it to reflect the team control foul rule change from a few years back.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

What happens when you guys tell a coach they have no more TO's, and later they find out they did? Not as bad as using too many, but it's still an issue. That's why I say nothing. Though now I vaguely recall that we are supposed to inform them when they have used their allotment. Please inform.

What usually happens is that they disagree and we'll figure it out right then.

And yes, we are supposed to inform them at "0".

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No.

But, you could have avoided the situation by not telling the coach she had one left. Only inform them when they have zero left.

Precisely, that said do you ever ask table where are we on TOs? And if table relays info to you just as assistant wanders over to catch tail end of conversation, poses question to you how many left? Do you play Marcel Marceau and point to table or relay info?

I really don't want to know unless one team is dead. IMO, that's what an assistant is for.

What does Bob do?

[Mark Padgett]

It's simple. Prior to the game starting, I tell the table to let us know only when a team gets into the bonus or double bonus, when a player has five fouls and when a team has used it's last timeout. Other than that, we don't want to know the status of any of those issues.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Dbyb

JV-G game. At 3 minutes in the 4th quarter R goes to table and asks for time outs left to each team. Scorer says Home has 0 time outs left and Visitors have 1. R conveys this information to each coach. At 1 minute left, Visitor coach calls a time out. R grants the time out, reports it and has the timer start the clock. Scorer then tells the R that Visitors, in fact, had no timeouts left and that earlier she had made a mistake and should have said Home had 1time out and Visitors had 0. (The 16 year old scorer just reversed the time outs and there was no visitor book to cross check). R now assesses a tech to the Visitors. Visitor coach is understandably upset having taken a time out that she was informed she had and then assessed a tech for not having it. The tech was assessed, both shots made, and she lost by 1 point.

Once the time out had been granted, was there any other option than the one we took?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Interesting. You have a local rules interpreter that advocates ignoring a very plainly written rule. And you haven't found any officials at all in your area that would also also follow a plainly written rule--for whatever reasons. And you've got a state final official that also wouldn't follow a plainly written rule. A state final official that would grant a TO, find out that it's an excess TO, and then cancel the TO so that he didn't have to call a "T". I'd love to see your state final official make that call at the end of a state championship game. Fwiw and if it'll make you feel better, Chris Webber would probably agree with that state official in a heartbeat though . Methinks that your area has a heckuva lot of work to do in the education of their officials. Note that's jmo.

In my experience, I don't know one good official that wouldn't make that call. They might not like the rule personally and they also personally might not want to follow the rule, but they would do it. the caveat obviously is that I and they are not in your area(I think).

And information from the scorebook is..well... official? Cool. Gee, I take it that under that philosophy we can't go back and correct any scorer's errors made under rule 2-10 or fix any scorer's mistakes under rule 2-11-11 either. Heckuva idea ...and a heckuva rules interpreter you got there, Coach. Btw, mentioning rule 2-11-11, I guess your rules interpreter never read the l'il sentence in there that says "A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score. Nope, once it's entered in the scorebook, it's ..well...official.

And right there, folks, you'll find the biggest difference between how a coach thinks and how an official thinks. A coach thinks that a rule should only be valid and enforced if it's fair to his team in his opinion. An official knows that the rules were written trying to be fair to BOTH teams, and that if we won't follow a plainly written rule it not only gives an unfair advantage to one team but it unfairly penalizes the other team at the same time. You only worry about YOUR team, coach. But we have to worry about BOTH teams. And if we don't call that deserved "T" in the play being discussed, we just screwed the other team.

Sorry, coach, we completely disagree philosophically on this one and we always will.

JR,
First of all, once I got beyond my view, I am only the messenger. At the same time, there are a few other interesting aspects to this situation. Keep in mind that in this case -- and ALL cases, there are TWO coaches. I am typically the coach with at least one or two timeouts left. My trusty scorekeeper is always working directly with the official book when he is not the official book to confirm all timeouts. It is a very rare game, indeed, when I do not know EXACTLY how many timeouts I have left. But, that is another discussion.

Per the original post, BOTH coaches were informed of the timeout situation. Apparently, the home coach was OK when told he was out of timeouts. He likely would have heard that the other team had one timeout left, as well. If he had a problem with the accuracy of the book, this would have provided a great time to argue for an additional timeout, if he did, in fact, deserve it. Yet, he said NOTHING. Therefore, when that timeout was called, I am guessing that the home coach did not feel as though he was getting "screwed" ME THINKS he thought that the officials properly permitted his opponent to receive his/her fifth and final timeout.

In this situation, the "Official Book" SPOKE -- rather than just being written. Neither my rules interpreter nor I believe that a book CANNOT be changed. However, if the book was SPOKEN officially to indicate one thing, the book better be SPOKEN again to correct the error. This should mean, sounding the horn (TWO MINUTES elapsed in the post -- NO EXCUSE for not conveying this information to the game officials AND the coaches) to officially CHANGE the book.

My concern is that what actually may have happened here is that someone may have gotten into the ear of the 16 year old scorekeeper and convinced her to change the book -- quite probably "screwing" the visiting team.

This "convenient" HOME TEAM official book change CLEARLY was a MAjOR benefit to the HOME TEAM. If you are OK with that, that is fine. But, as you have stated we philosophically disagree that an on-the-fly "stealth" change is "fair" and within the rules. I -- eitther as an official, as the visiting coach, as the home coach or as a coach simply watching the game feel that such a change to the official scorebook should require notification that such a change has taken place -- keep in mind, the scorer kept his/her little "secret" (the change is timeouts remaining) for a FULL ONE HUNDRED TWENTY SECONDS!!! Failure to notify a change in the book in this case is a failure to make a change and we are going with what the scorer's documentation last indicated.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

This "convenient" HOME TEAM official book change CLEARLY was a MAjOR benefit to the HOME TEAM.

Could be, but the play was also called correctly by rule.

OK, let me ask you a question....and forget about home and visitors.....the scorebook is supposed to be neutral. And mistakes will made honestly.

You're the coach of a team in a state high school championship game. Your team has never been in a state championship game before, let alone won one. You're down by 1 point with 10 seconds to go. The opposing team has a spot throw-in under your basket after you called your last timeout. You're pressing naturally and you've also told your players to foul immediately if they can't steal the ball on the throw-in. The thrower is up to a 4-count, which you know by watching the official's arm, when the thrower asks for a timeout. The timeout is granted. You now hear the scorer tell the official that the opposing team didn't have any timeouts left. The official responds by telling the scorer that it's OK and it isn't a technical foul because your opponents weren't exactly sure how many TO's they had left. Soooooo, you tell me....are you, the coach who just spent hundreds of hours with your kids getting them ready for a state championship game, now gonna say "Gee, that's fair. I agree with that completely."?

Be honest.

Btw, if you need to call another timeout also, do you think that you should be able to now take another one too--because "fair's fair"? Or is that concept only good for one team at a time? And if you do call an extra timeout and get a "T" for it, are you just gonna nod your head and say "Gee, I agree with that call too. That's different"?