Designated spot after timeout / made basket?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Disagree. I don't think this one is interpreted literally. "On the floor" means not on the shot. It doesn't imply the shot doesn't count, it means the shot doesn't count. I don't think many people relate it directly to the position of the player with regard to touching the floor or not.

Then why not simply say, "No shot" or "Before the shot"?

"On the floor" describes a location, not an action.
It doesn't tell anyone whether the player had begun shooting yet or not. Thus, it is a very poor phrase to use for such situations.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Disagree. I don't think this one is interpreted literally. "On the floor" means not on the shot. It doesn't imply the shot doesn't count, it means the shot doesn't count. I don't think many people relate it directly to the position of the player with regard to touching the floor or not.

I, personally, don't like this one, because not only is it inaccurate from a rulebook standpoint, I don't consider it to be a good description of a foul occurring before the motion which habitually proceeds the try has begun.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Cobra

I, personally, don't like this one, because not only is it inaccurate from a rulebook standpoint, I don't consider it to be a good description of a foul occurring before the motion which habitually proceeds the try has begun.

Hey, I think I just wrote that!

[Nevadaref]

Some thoughts from other frequent posters here as written on the NFHS forum:

Originally Posted by The Cranky Old Dinosaur

Common sense tells me that "on the floor" has NO relevance at all when it comes to having to decide whether a player was in the act of shooting or not. A player can be "on the floor" and still be awarded 2 or 3 FT's for being fouled in the act of shooting. Common sense also tells me that you don't seem to understand the relevant rule very well.

It's got nothing at all to do with arrogance. It's got everything to do with knowing and understanding the rules so that the play can be called correctly. It's also got everything to do with educating other officials so that they can also call the play correctly.

"On the floor" does NOT equate to being fouled BEFORE starting the act of shooting. Never has. Never will. It is simply not true in ALL cases and that's why that phrase shouldn't ever be used.

Originally Posted by BillyMac's twin brother

What part of this photo did you not understand? If this cute little kid gets fouled in this position, I'm giving him two shots, even though he's "on the floor".

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am going to have to back Woody and others on this one. Saying "On the floor" is not only confusing, but incorrect. And the point has been made here or many other places as incorrect. You do not have to have a bad holiday to point this out or to say this is incorrect. It is incorrect because the act of shooting starts with the habitual motion to the basket, which often starts without a player leaving the floor. Sorry, but that language is wrong. Do not take it personally.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Then why not simply say, "No shot" or "Before the shot"?

"On the floor" describes a location, not an action.
It doesn't tell anyone whether the player had begun shooting yet or not. Thus, it is a very poor phrase to use for such situations.

This is actually the one I use the great majority of the time.

It must. Every time I use it someone yells, "But, he was shooting."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Cobra

I, personally, don't like this one, because not only is it inaccurate from a rulebook standpoint, I don't consider it to be a good description of a foul occurring before the motion which habitually proceeds the try has begun.

I don't consider it to be a description at all, but merely a figure of speech which conveys information.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

"On the floor" describes a location, not an action.
It doesn't tell anyone whether the player had begun shooting yet or not.

Originally Posted by just another ref

It must. Every time I use it someone yells, "But, he was shooting."

That makes sense as that person is simply telling you that your decision to not award FTs because of the location of the player (your verbalization of "on the floor") is incorrect. You just aren't understanding the protest.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I don't consider it to be a description at all, but merely a figure of speech which conveys information.

Whether you agree or disagree, the point they're making is that it mattereth not what you think this figure of speech means. It only matters what the hearer thinks it means. If it means something else to the hearer, then you have not conveyed the information you intended.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

And before the pitchfork and torch crew begin massing,

I can appreciate a good Frankenstein plug.

I really enjoyed those old school ,crappy horror movies,alot.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I don't consider it to be a description at all, but merely a figure of speech which conveys information.

While it* is sometimes correct, it (too often) gets interpreted as an absolute. Then, when the absolute correctly isn't called, fans, coaches, players wonder why.

So, don't use it.

* - "It" can be over the back, reach, on the floor, etc.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Every time I use it someone yells, "But, he was shooting."

Yabut....if you use "before the shot", then maybe no one would have anything to yell about.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That makes sense as that person is simply telling you that your decision to not award FTs because of the location of the player (your verbalization of "on the floor") is incorrect. You just aren't understanding the protest.

Granted, the verbalization "on the floor" is incorrect, from a rulebook standpoint.
But this is not a literal argument. The player can be off the floor for an extended period of time which is obvious to everyone and still not be in the act of shooting.

If a coach asks "Was it (the foul) on the floor?" Is it ok for me to simply say yes or is it necessary to give a language lesson?

Is it incorrect? yes Is it misleading? no Is this issue worthy of this many posts? definitely not


I've asked this before: Why do we not complain when a coach yells for a "walking" call? Does the word walk appear anywhere in the books?

[Back In The Saddle]

Must be a regional thing, but I don't recall hearing a coach ever asking for "walking". But I've worked with a much older guy who occasionally refers to traveling as "progression".

Once you get past the ideological purity arguments, the reality is that it's all about communication. If the words you or I choose do not effectively communicate, we are using the wrong words. If they do effectively communicate, they are not wrong. However, there may be words we could chose that communicate even more effectively. I think we ought to always be open to that possibility and be on the look out for better alternatives.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If a coach asks "Was it (the foul) on the floor?" Is it ok for me to simply say yes or is it necessary to give a language lesson?

Neither. Say, "yes, it was before the shot."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Granted, the verbalization "on the floor" is incorrect, from a rulebook standpoint.
But this is not a literal argument. The player can be off the floor for an extended period of time which is obvious to everyone and still not be in the act of shooting.

If a coach asks "Was it (the foul) on the floor?" Is it ok for me to simply say yes or is it necessary to give a language lesson?

Is it incorrect? yes Is it misleading? no Is this issue worthy of this many posts? definitely not


I've asked this before: Why do we not complain when a coach yells for a "walking" call? Does the word walk appear anywhere in the books?

1. If a coach asks me if it was "on the floor" after I've waved off a shot, my answer is "it was before the shot." It doesn't really take any longer than "yes" and it's actually accurate.

2. "On the floor" fits into a list of misleading phrases and signals that perpetuate myths.

a) travel signal on a throwin spot violatoin
b) "reach"
c) "over the back"
d) "wait til it hits the rim"
e) "everyone move back behind the half court line"

3. Coaches here don't ask for "walking," and the good ones don't ask for reaches or over the back calls.