Administrative T or not?

[Zoochy]

Team submits roster. Sometime in the 2nd quarter, #22 enters into the game. Player # 22 is not listed in the book. So Home scorekeeper enters the player, but does not inform the officials of this addition. Later in the game #22 enters the game. Now the visitor scorekeeper notices that this player is not in the scorebook.
'T' or too late?

[tjones1]

10.1.2

The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.

[Adam]

I hate this scenario. By rule, no T. I'd be tempted to have the score book replaced.

One option. Switch the official book to the visitor book due to incompetence, cheating, or both on the part of the home book. Give the T now that you're adding #22 to the newly official score book. I'm thinking out loud on this one, but I hate the thought of the home book being able to cheat on this, saving the home team from a technical foul.

Edited to add: I'm assuming #22 is a home player.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by tjones1

10.1.2

The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.

Originally Posted by Zoochy

Team submits roster. Sometime in the 2nd quarter, #22 enters into the game. Player # 22 is not listed in the book. So Home scorekeeper enters the player, but does not inform the officials of this addition. Later in the game #22 enters the game. Now the visitor scorekeeper notices that this player is not in the scorebook.
'T' or too late?

I realize that the official book is supposed to be the bible for the score & fouls, however since the visitors' scorebook didn't add the player till comes in a 2nd or 3rd time, couldn't a T then be assessed for having to add to the visitors' book?

Considering both books are supposed to have the same information at all times.

[BillyMac]

A key point here, lost to most non-officials, is that the infraction is not that there wasn't a #22 listed, the infraction actually occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. In a slightly different scenario, if the coach discovered that #22 was not in the book and chose not to have #22 play, there would be no infraction, and, thus, no technical foul.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I hate this scenario. By rule, no T. I'd be tempted to have the score book replaced.

One option. Switch the official book to the visitor book due to incompetence, cheating, or both on the part of the home book. Give the T now that you're adding #22 to the newly official score book. I'm thinking out loud on this one, but I hate the thought of the home book being able to cheat on this, saving the home team from a technical foul.

Edited to add: I'm assuming #22 is a home player.

I've had it happen before where the home team did not have a scorebook, so the visitors' scorebook became the official book. What would happen in a situation like this if there was only one book present if the situation happened?

[zm1283]

I've had this happen twice now. Last year, we penalized it with a T in a JH game and checked it at halftime when I discovered I was wrong.

It happened in a BJV game again a few weeks ago. We start the 4th quarter. At the first stoppage of play, the scorer calls us over and tell us that #10 had came in between quarters and she added him to the book. My partner says it is a T. I tell him that no, it is not a T because the ball had become live after the player had been added. He was skeptical but I told him I'm sure of it and I would take the heat if I was wrong.

He called me a few days later and tried to try and claim that he was right. I pointed out the difference between "penalized when discovered" and "penalized when it occurs" and pointed out that there is a case play in the book this year that specifically covers this situation. I don't think he was convinced but I wasn't going to argue about it.

[chseagle]

Can not a T still be assessed when the visitors' book adds the player even if the home/offical book has already added the player?

As long as it's discovered before the ball is put into play that is, or does anything having to do with the books only deal with the Home/Official Book?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'd be tempted to have the score book replaced.

But then you'd have to put all the information into the new score book. Besides, what if they didn't have any more score books?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Can not a T still be assessed when the visitors' book adds the player even if the home/offical book has already added the player?

As long as it's discovered before the ball is put into play that is, or does anything having to do with the books only deal with the Home/Official Book?

According to the rules, there is only one book. The V book is a tool for the visitors; it also serves us the purpose of keeping the HB honest.

Personally, I'd like to see this rule changed to penalized when discovered.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

But then you'd have to put all the information into the new score book. Besides, what if they didn't have any more score books?

If the information isn't already there, I won't make a change. If the V book is keeping track of what's going on, it shouldn't be a problem.

That said, the fact that the V book didn't catch it the first time is somewhat problematic.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If the information isn't already there, I won't make a change. If the V book is keeping track of what's going on, it shouldn't be a problem.

That said, the fact that the V book didn't catch it the first time is somewhat problematic.

Aren't books and score books inanimate objects?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Aren't books and score books inanimate objects?

Did mbyron hack into your account? :P

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Did mbyron hack into your account? :P

I think he got Padgett as well.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by chseagle

I've had it happen before where the home team did not have a scorebook, so the visitors' scorebook became the official book. What would happen in a situation like this if there was only one book present if the situation happened?

Well, then the situation (added to one book, and later added to the other) wouldn't happen, would it?

Originally Posted by chseagle

Can not a T still be assessed when the visitors' book adds the player even if the home/offical book has already added the player?

Of course not.