When is a sub legal?

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The substitution process is outlined in 3-3. A substitute makes legal entry into the court only after being beckoned by an official.

But it doesn't really SAY that in 3-3, does it?

The reason I ask is a situation I saw in a Varsity girls game the other night.

There had been a foul and the shooter had shot the first of two free throws when it was noticed that she was bleeding. The administering official called to the bench for a substitute. A player entered the court without stopping in front of the table and was called back by her coach who then inserted another player. (Who also did not stop in front of the table) The "beckoning signal" was not used for either player.

So, without the beckoning signal, the player becomes the substitute when the ball is administered to her at the free throw line?

Rita

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rita C

There had been a foul and the shooter had shot the first of two free throws when it was noticed that she was bleeding.

Rita C: This is not a hijack, but a slight detour. I hope that you don't mind.

Girls varsity. Team A is getting clobbered by Team B. One player on Team A stands out, a freshman point guard, who is, by far, the best player on the court for both teams. Scoring, assists, and several steals. She plays the entire game with a band aid on her upper arm, that on a few occasions starts to peel off, but she keeps on getting it re-taped during timeouts, and intermissions. Late in the game, her team is twenty points behind, and she has played every minute up until that point. With 1:30 left in the game, I note that she is no longer wearing a band aid, and I think, but I'm not sure, that there is a very small, wet looking, red, open wound on the upper arm where the band aid was throughout the game. At this point, everything is in transition, and I figure that, since I'm not sure, maybe the clock will run out and I can get out of Dodge. Of course that doesn't happen, a foul is called, and while lining up for free throws, I can't help but notice that there is a very small amount of wet blood on her upper arm. The Team A coach is right there, so I tell him that we will need a substitute for his bleeding player. He looks at me like I'm from Mars, or something, so I offer that he can also take a timeout to keep her in the game, never thinking that, down twenty points, with 0:30 left, he would continue to play someone who has just played 31:30, with lots of eligible substitutes on the bench. You guessed it, he took the timeout, and kept her in for the remaining 0:30. Once you think that you've got coaches figured out, you realize that there's no figuring out coaches.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled program. Thank you for your patience.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rita C

But it doesn't really SAY that in 3-3, does it?

The reason I ask is a situation I saw in a Varsity girls game the other night.

There had been a foul and the shooter had shot the first of two free throws when it was noticed that she was bleeding. The administering official called to the bench for a substitute. A player entered the court without stopping in front of the table and was called back by her coach who then inserted another player. (Who also did not stop in front of the table) The "beckoning signal" was not used for either player.

So, without the beckoning signal, the player becomes the substitute when the ball is administered to her at the free throw line?

Rita

If the official watched the sub come in, and, by his/her actions "allowed" it, then I'd say the sub was a player at that time.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

with 0:30 left, he would continue to play someone who has just played 29:30,

You play 7.5 minute quarters? 15 minute halves? 10 minute thirds?

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the official watched the sub come in, and, by his/her actions "allowed" it, then I'd say the sub was a player at that time.

My point is, there really isn't anything in the rulebook that says there is a definitive point in time the player becomes a legal substitute.

Rita

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rita C

There really isn't anything in the rulebook that says there is a definitive point in time the player becomes a legal substitute.

There isn't?

3-3-3: A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court.
If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.
A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or
after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

There isn't?

3-3-3: A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court.
If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live.
A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or
after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.

When do they "legally enter" the court? What is the definition of that?

That's my point.

Rita

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Rita C

When do they "legally enter" the court? What is the definition of that?

That's my point.

Rita

AFAIK there is no definition of that specifically. However, "The substitute shall remain outside the boundary until an official beckons, whereupon he/she shall enter immediately." Which I take to mean that the "enter" part of "legally enter" means to cross over the boundary line onto the court. The "legal" part requires the official to beckon the substitute. So I understand "legally enter" to mean waiting until the official beckons, then stepping onto the court.

However, it's pretty commonplace that subs do not get beckoned, but are ... recognized? by the official and allowed to enter with his/her consent. Example, you've got two subs waiting at the table. At the next whistle, the official brings the subs in. While that official is holding his partner off, waiting for the replaced players to leave the floor, another sub checks in and comes onto the floor. The official sees the sub enter, and does not beckon but continues holding his/her partner off until the additional substitution is completed. The additional sub was not beckoned, but I'd say the player legally entered the game.

That probably just complicates the attempt to define "legally enter", but it's common practice.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You play 7.5 minute quarters? 15 minute halves? 10 minute thirds?

Sorry. Good catch. You've got a sharp eye for details. Fixed it. Thanks. My slide rule doesn't add or subtract, it just does everything else. Ten minute thirds? Good one.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Rita C

But it doesn't really SAY that in 3-3, does it?

The reason I ask is a situation I saw in a Varsity girls game the other night.

There had been a foul and the shooter had shot the first of two free throws when it was noticed that she was bleeding. The administering official called to the bench for a substitute. A player entered the court without stopping in front of the table and was called back by her coach who then inserted another player. (Who also did not stop in front of the table) The "beckoning signal" was not used for either player.

So, without the beckoning signal, the player becomes the substitute when the ball is administered to her at the free throw line?

Rita

It seems to me that 3-3 says it quite clearly: "The substitute shall remain outside the boundary until an official beckons, whereupon he/she shall enter immediately."

It seems the game officials messed up a couple of times then. They should have made the subs go to the table and beckoned them (although when a sub is able to come into the game immediately, my beckon is usually very subtle).

Also, if the free thrower is able to shoot her free throws, but is bleeding...shouldn't the lane be cleared, the bleeder allowed to take her free throws, a sub be made immediately following the final free throw, and play resumed with either an end line throw-in or a AP throw-in? Isn't there a case play very much like this involving a player with an untucked jersey?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

If the free thrower is able to shoot her free throws, but is bleeding, shouldn't the lane be cleared, the bleeder allowed to take her free throws?

Yes, but first she has to put on this biohazard suit:

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Also, if the free thrower is able to shoot her free throws, but is bleeding...shouldn't the lane be cleared, the bleeder allowed to take her free throws, a sub be made immediately following the final free throw, and play resumed with either an end line throw-in or a AP throw-in? Isn't there a case play very much like this involving a player with an untucked jersey?

I was under the impression in NFHS when it is discovered that a player have blood on their person or bleeding he/she must be removed immediately.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I was under the impression in NFHS when it is discovered that a player have blood on their person or bleeding he/she must be removed immediately.

Correct as per NFHS case book play 3.3.7SitB(b). The player must leave as soon as the bleeding is observed.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The player must leave as soon as the bleeding is observed.

What? Then I guess that the NFHS hasn't heard about biohazard suits?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

What? Then I guess that the NFHS hasn't heard about biohazard suits?

It's a budget thing, billy. Besides, biohazard suits are hard to get within uniform standards.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Besides, biohazard suits are hard to get within uniform standards.

No problem. Numbers front and back. No mascots. White home suit. Dark road suit. No 0 and 00. No identical numbers. No numerals above five.