Legal Tag?

[bwbuddy]

I posted this on the softball board, but it could have happened in any diamond sport, so I would like the thoughts of you baseball experts as well:

R1; Batter hits grounder to F4; fielder holds ball in bare hand, but is holding ball against left side of glove (not in glove), while "tagging" R1 with opposite side of glove. Ball never contacted R1, but was in contact with opposite side of glove.

What's the call?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by bwbuddy

I posted this on the softball board, but it could have happened in any diamond sport, so I would like the thoughts of you baseball experts as well:

R1; Batter hits grounder to F4; fielder holds ball in bare hand, but is holding ball against left side of glove (not in glove), while "tagging" R1 with opposite side of glove. Ball never contacted R1, but was in contact with opposite side of glove.

What's the call?

I've got an out here. I doubt many would pick this nit.


A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove.



Tim.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by bwbuddy

I posted this on the softball board, but it could have happened in any diamond sport, so I would like the thoughts of you baseball experts as well:

R1; Batter hits grounder to F4; fielder holds ball in bare hand, but is holding ball against left side of glove (not in glove), while "tagging" R1 with opposite side of glove. Ball never contacted R1, but was in contact with opposite side of glove.

What's the call?

If there's no separation between ball and glove at time of tag, I've got an out.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I've got an out here. I doubt many would pick this nit.


A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove.



Tim.

A flow chart of a Tag (the second part)

Touching a runner with the ball
OR
Touching a runner with his hand holding the ball
OR
Touching a runner with his glove holding the ball
AND
All the while holding possession in his hand or glove.

Seems to me like he is safe. The glove hit the runner, but the glove was not holding the ball. The hand was. And the hand did not touch the runner.

Technically speaking, he is safe. Not starting an arguement about the obvious/expected call again. But I think the definition of "TAG" has him as safe.

Unless there is some sort of approved ruling or casebook ruling I am not aware of.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by bwbuddy

I posted this on the softball board, but it could have happened in any diamond sport, so I would like the thoughts of you baseball experts as well:

R1; Batter hits grounder to F4; fielder holds ball in bare hand, but is holding ball against left side of glove (not in glove), while "tagging" R1 with opposite side of glove. Ball never contacted R1, but was in contact with opposite side of glove.

What's the call?

As specifically described, you do not have a legal tag.

As others have noted, I expect it would sure look like a good tag, and therefore it's likely I would call the out.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

A flow chart of a Tag (the second part)

Touching a runner with the ball
OR
Touching a runner with his hand holding the ball
OR
Touching a runner with his glove holding the ball
AND
All the while holding possession in his hand or glove.

Seems to me like he is safe. The glove hit the runner, but the glove was not holding the ball. The hand was. And the hand did not touch the runner.

Technically speaking, he is safe. Not starting an arguement about the obvious/expected call again. But I think the definition of "TAG" has him as safe.

Unless there is some sort of approved ruling or casebook ruling I am not aware of.

Okay...just for giggles, how do you interpret this
one:

"OBR 7.08 Any runner is out when (a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from a directo line between bases to avoid beeing tagged...."

Do you also interpret this literally, or have you a sense of tradition, common usage and common sense in this matter? If so, why not apply it to the "tag play" here?

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

This is not an out on a tag.

I forget the name of the catcher ( I believe it was Evans of the Braves a few years back), but the same thing happened. A play at the plate, the ball gets bobbled and the glove goes out instinctively followed by the hand grasping the ball. The catcher's mitt separated the ball from the player. It was a great (albeit difficult) call to make.

Sure, the player has secured possession of the ball. But just like the run down play that has a player barehand a ball and tag the runner with the empty glove, the runner is not out by tag.

I'd hate to have to make this call and luckily have never seen it happen. But, I know that it was the player who made the mistake. Those are the ones who get penalized.

[fmsc]

I have a couple of questions for those who wouldn't consider this a tag. First ,is it a tag if the ball is secured in the bare hand and placed "inside" an unclosed glove while tagging with the glove? I really doubt that many would say no tag. So, where are the boundaries of the legal surface(s) of a glove for the ball to be placed against that will make for a legal tag? Maybe all fielder's who might tag runners should be required to use 2 tone gloves to make these calls a little easier.
Until then, as long as ball is secure and held to any part of the glove during tag I'm calling it a legal tag.

[bwbuddy]

For the record, the umpire called safe, explained quickly to the defense, and no argument was made.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally Posted by fmsc

I have a couple of questions for those who wouldn't consider this a tag. First ,is it a tag if the ball is secured in the bare hand and placed "inside" an unclosed glove while tagging with the glove? I really doubt that many would say no tag. So, where are the boundaries of the legal surface(s) of a glove for the ball to be placed against that will make for a legal tag? Maybe all fielder's who might tag runners should be required to use 2 tone gloves to make these calls a little easier.
Until then, as long as ball is secure and held to any part of the glove during tag I'm calling it a legal tag.

Fair enough...you and a few others would be making a bad call, but it's your call to make.

The rule book is abundantly clear about what constitutes an out by tag. This is not one of them.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

Fair enough...you and a few others would be making a bad call, but it's your call to make.

The rule book is abundantly clear about what constitutes an out by tag. This is not one of them.

Correct, although if you are the umpire who makes the obvious call, and goes by things such as the tag was down, etc... then he's out.

Not bashing that form of umpiring, although I don't agree with it.

TECHNICALLY, he's safe, based off the definition of the tag I outlined above

[Carbide Keyman]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Correct, although if you are the umpire who makes the obvious call, and goes by things such as the tag was down, etc... then he's out.

Not bashing that form of umpiring, although I don't agree with it.

TECHNICALLY, he's safe, based off the definition of the tag I outlined above

Depends on how "obvious" it is, and how much of a sh!tstorm you want to endure, I guess



Doug

[nickrego]

Call the out.

It's like not calling a pitch that passes through the strike zone, but gets past the catcher and ends up at the backstop a strike. Everybody thinks its a ball, so we call it a ball.

Same thing here. Everybody thinks its an out, so call it an out. You will see this type of tag many more times in your career.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by nickrego

Call the out.

It's like not calling a pitch that passes through the strike zone, but gets past the catcher and ends up at the backstop a strike. Everybody thinks its a ball, so we call it a ball.

Same thing here. Everybody thinks its an out, so call it an out. You will see this type of tag many more times in your career.

Oh thanks, nick, you just summoned the 'spirit of NIUmp50' to come and dispute you

[BBUMP99]

Originally Posted by bwbuddy

...with opposite side of glove. Ball never contacted R1, but was in contact with opposite side of glove....

To me that seems the same as if he was to hold the ball in his hand, with the hand in the glove, and make the tag. He is not holding the ball with the glove, but he does have posession of the ball in contact with the glove. I've got an out.