Tough sideline call

[MelbRef]

This seems to be a tough call for me. Open to advice on what best to focus on.

When a player is dribbling fast up the sideline in a fast break situation, and the defender is sprinting along side pinching off the dribbler until he/she dribbles out of bounds. Maybe slight contact during the pressure. Maybe he/she is being ridden out of bounds. Maybe he/she should have passed or reversed dribble instead of trying to run the sideline.

This happens frequently with Middle School to JV girls.

It's kind of a subtle thing, but you can anticipate it as it's happening.

One associate said that when it's a close call that they like to call "out of bounds", with the ball back to the offense (dribbler), instead of a foul on the defender.

You guys have all seen it.
Thoughts?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MelbRef

This seems to be a tough call for me. Open to advice on what best to focus on.

When a player is dribbling fast up the sideline in a fast break situation, and the defender is sprinting along side pinching off the dribbler until he/she dribbles out of bounds. Maybe slight contact during the pressure. Maybe he/she is being ridden out of bounds. Maybe he/she should have passed or reversed dribble instead of trying to run the sideline.

This happens frequently with Middle School to JV girls.

It's kind of a subtle thing, but you can anticipate it as it's happening.

One associate said that when it's a close call that they like to call "out of bounds", with the ball back to the offense (dribbler), instead of a foul on the defender.

You guys have all seen it.
Thoughts?

Of all the calls, the one your associate makes would seem to me to be the "most wrong". There used to be, at least in some codes, a "force out" call, but that hasn't been n FED or NCAA rules for a long time.

If the defender gets there first, then the responsibility is on the offense -- probably out of bounds.

If not, then the responsibility is on the defense -- probably a foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by MelbRef

When a player is dribbling fast up the sideline in a fast break situation, and the defender is sprinting along side pinching off the dribbler until he/she dribbles out of bounds.

Rule 4 SECTION 7 BLOCKING, CHARGING
c. There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a
defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in
his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater
responsibility for the contact.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Rule 4 SECTION 7 BLOCKING, CHARGING
c. There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a
defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in
his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater
responsibility for the contact.

Only applicable if the defender has a legal position on the court before the contact.....

Doesn't apply to a defender and dribbler with converging paths.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by MelbRef

This seems to be a tough call for me. Open to advice on what best to focus on.

When a player is dribbling fast up the sideline in a fast break situation, and the defender is sprinting along side pinching off the dribbler until he/she dribbles out of bounds. Maybe slight contact during the pressure. Maybe he/she is being ridden out of bounds. Maybe he/she should have passed or reversed dribble instead of trying to run the sideline.

This happens frequently with Middle School to JV girls.

It's kind of a subtle thing, but you can anticipate it as it's happening.

One associate said that when it's a close call that they like to call "out of bounds", with the ball back to the offense (dribbler), instead of a foul on the defender.

You guys have all seen it.
Thoughts?

A call must be made. Either an OOB call on the offense or a foul on the defense due to the contact.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Only applicable if the defender has a legal position on the court before the contact.....

Doesn't apply to a defender and dribbler with converging paths.

I agree....from the description in the OP the defender never established LGP.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by MelbRef

This seems to be a tough call for me. Open to advice on what best to focus on.

When a player is dribbling fast up the sideline in a fast break situation, and the defender is sprinting along side pinching off the dribbler until he/she dribbles out of bounds. Maybe slight contact during the pressure. Maybe he/she is being ridden out of bounds. Maybe he/she should have passed or reversed dribble instead of trying to run the sideline.

This happens frequently with Middle School to JV girls.

It's kind of a subtle thing, but you can anticipate it as it's happening.

One associate said that when it's a close call that they like to call "out of bounds", with the ball back to the offense (dribbler), instead of a foul on the defender.

You guys have all seen it.
Thoughts?

Several of us were discussing this very play. We concluded that several of us tend to make the OOB call. I tend to pass on the contact UNLESS the player is bumped out of bounds. A foul is the correct call in this case -- unless the defender had LGP. LGP is rare is girls MS to JV basketball.

[just another ref]

This is not absolute, but a quick way to summarize the play is if it would not have been a foul in the middle of the court, it probably is not a foul on the sideline either. Frequently, a player, especially at younger levels, will allow himself to be crowded out of bounds with no contact at all.

[Back In The Saddle]

"When a dribbler in his/her progress is moving in a straight-line path, he/she may not be crowded out of that path, but if an opponent is able to legally obtain a defensive position in that path, the dribbler must avoid contact by changing direction or ending his/her dribble." (NFHS 10-6-9)

Unless the defense has LGP in the dribbler's path, this is a foul on the defense. It seems pretty subtle, but in my experience this will continue to happen until you call it. Then it'll stop like magic. YMMV

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

"When a dribbler in his/her progress is moving in a straight-line path, he/she may not be crowded out of that path, but if an opponent is able to legally obtain a defensive position in that path, the dribbler must avoid contact by changing direction or ending his/her dribble." (NFHS 10-6-9)

Unless the defense has LGP in the dribbler's path, this is a foul on the defense. It seems pretty subtle, but in my experience this will continue to happen until you call it. Then it'll stop like magic. YMMV

Agree. What you can't call is a violation when illegal contact gives a team an undeserved advantage not meant by rule.

Add case book play 10.6.9...
Dribbler A1 has established a straight-line path towards a certain area of the court. Can A1 maintain this specific path.
RULING: Only to the extent that no opponent is who is behind OR TO THE SIDE can crowd A1 out of this path. Opponents may attempt to obtain a legal guarding position in A1's path at any time...

Throw in Rule 10-6-8 and you have enough direction from the rules to make the correct call imo...
Rule 10-6-8- When a dribbler, without contact, sufficiently passes an opponent to have head and shoulders in advance of that opponent, the greater responsibility for subsequent contact is on the opponent.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Agree. What you can't call is a violation when illegal contact gives a team an undeserved advantage not meant by rule.

That's my take as well - correct call is a foul on the defensive player.

[Rich]

I had a play in a varsity girls game a week ago where the defender established LGP and made it impossible for the dribbler to go outside the defender. So what does the dribbler do? She bumps straight into the defender (not enough for a PC foul), the ball goes out of bounds, I give the ball to B, and the coach (who's naturally right in my lap) asks me how that couldn't be a foul.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I had a play in a varsity girls game a week ago where the defender established LGP and made it impossible for the dribbler to go outside the defender. So what does the dribbler do? She bumps straight into the defender (not enough for a PC foul), the ball goes out of bounds, I give the ball to B, and the coach (who's naturally right in my lap) asks me how that couldn't be a foul.

"Well, coach, I just didn't see enough contact to call a charge."

Or:

"Well, coach, if I call a charge we're going the other way anyway -- just thought I'd save you a team foul."

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I had a play in a varsity girls game a week ago where the defender established LGP and made it impossible for the dribbler to go outside the defender. So what does the dribbler do? She bumps straight into the defender (not enough for a PC foul), the ball goes out of bounds, I give the ball to B, and the coach (who's naturally right in my lap) asks me how that couldn't be a foul.

Don't you just love it! If I think they"re being rhetorical I simply ignore it....but if it's a sincere question my reply would be something like "Defender had LGP -not enough contact to call a player control foul" or "Defender had LGP coach - do you really want me to call a foul on your own player?"

I know it's rarely a good idea to engage in conversation with a coach, but I actually used the latter version once. Coach had been asking these kind of questions throughout the game and his manner wasn't harassing in the least - it just appeared he really didn't understand the rules all that well. Similar situation to yours early Q3 and very sincerely I used the latter response. His reaction was priceless - reminded me of the line "hung him up" from the Jimmy Buffett song. He just stared at me for a couple seconds with a bewildered look on his face, then said "Oh, OK - thanks." We didn't hear a whole lot from him the rest of the game, so in this case I think it worked out OK.