T Up a Fan?!?
 

GV last night with a near first...almost had to whack a fan. I look forward to the fodder and clarifications.

Sit: Held ball, partner whistle, white lets go, girl for green hits the deck, starts crying and holding elbow she landed on. I wait a moment to see if she's getting up, then beckon green coach to floor. Before the coach reaches the girl a guy comes from the stands on his way to the girl--must be a parent (Great!).

Parent has a few choice words for me about the physical play and what I should be calling. I give him (parent now on the floor) the "one more word" ultimatum as it was appropriate.

(A)Is the parent a fan since he came from the stands?
(B)Is he bench personnel since he cam to the court?

If I had whacked the parent, what's the proper way to charge the T?

So glad it didn't come to actually having to whack a fan for stupidity.

I wouldn't T up a fan - even if it was a parent coming to check on kid. I would make sure coach was on the way to aid player and find game management and have them deal with problem. The person (dad) will have to make a decision whether to aid his child or bi!ch at you. In the former - let the coach and parent help injured player, get replacement on court and move on. In the latter, have game management remove them.

Impossible.

When a player is injured, it's best to get far away from the player. Hard to stop a concerned parent from coming to the aid of their child. Let the AD and coach deal with it. Get as far away as you can while keeping an eye on the other players. If the parent is making a scene, find the AD and have them deal with the parent. Nothing good can come of this.

As soon as the parent opens their mouth at me, its bye-bye. They want to come on the floor to assess their child's injury in a CYO/Rec/AAU/summer league game I can understand their concern. As soon as they open their mouth to berate the officials, they are taking advantage of the situation and I will ask GM to remove them. If its an OHSAA sanctioned event, they have no business on the floor until the coach beckons them because its a dire injury. SO its bye-bye automatically. The coach might appreciate it in that situation anyway, as they are probably an intrusive parent.

No one other than bench personnel or the medical trainer is ever allowed to come onto the court during a game. PERIOD.
If random people come out without being granted permission, then they need to be removed from the facility.

Now the part with which many here will disagree. Over the past few years, I have become convinced that if the behavior of a spectator at a HS game is poor enough to warrant an ejection, then a team technical foul should also be assessed, and that can be supported per 2-8-1.

I firmly believe that if the team/coach can't control their fans/followers, then they should be penalized.

I'm with Nevada on this one, and sometimes at lower level rec games with two-bit game management, it's your only real enforcement mechanism. Now, in a HS game, varsity especially, GM had better remove this parent from the facility. As soon as that fan comes to the floor, if his first move isn't back to the stands (after realizing his mistake), I'm heading to the table to inform them I need to speak with GM NOW.

Is what I have in bold sound about right for the rule in question?

If I remember right, under rule 2-8-1, there's a note that states:
"The home management or game committee is responsible for spectator behavior, insofar as it can reasonably be expected to control the spectators. The officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game. Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized. When team supporters become unruly or interfere with the orderly progress of the game, the officials shall stop the game until the host management resolves the situation and the game can proceed in an orderly manner. In the absence of
a designated school representative, the home coach shall serve as the host management."

You did all of that from memory? WOW! ;)

I believe that Billy Mac would like to speak to you about what supplements you are taking. :D

(Yes, those are the correct rules citations.)

When the baby, regardless of age, falls hard and doesn't get up, some parents are not going to ask anybody's permission before checking on him/her.
I, personally, can't see myself taking any action against this parent if that's all he/she was doing.

That's any parent's reaction when their child gets hurt, no matter the age.

However, from my understanding, the only ones allowed on the floor during an injury timeout are supposed to be the coach & medical personnel (perhaps the parent coming on the floor was an EMT or nurse).

Perhaps, and perhaps he was a street car conductor or a fry cook. (Billy Mac will explain later)

Where does this information come from?

If he comes on the floor and just checks on his daughter not realizing, he probably gets told the rule. He may not know. As soon as he starts in it's BUH BYE.

I've seen enough injury timeouts in person, so was just going off of what I have witnessed.

When I was Boys' Basketball Manager, I had 1st hand experience in an injury timeout when one of our star players was pushed into the bleachers & was knocked unconscious for a few minutes. During that injury timeout, there was a bit of a gathering around (especially since he was on the sidelines), however a perimeter around him was kept open where the only ones near him was the coach & medical personnel. The parents were there but were not directly at his side until he got moved into the locker room for further assessment.

When my sister played varsity basketball, my mom was the type to run onto the court if she was seriously hurt. Referring back to when I mentioned my sister was knocked out for just a few seconds, that was the only time (that I know of) that my mom actually went down onto the court to check on her. For me, I'm ok with it as long as it is just one person and it has to be a mom, dad or guardian (only because I don't want someone younger claiming to be a brother, sister, etc. and actually just be a fan with no relations). But like some have said, let GM manage with it and get away from the injured player once a coach or trainer comes to the player.

I've learned this from veteran officials... don't get in between an overprotective mother or father and her/his kid. That will cause even more problems or grief.

From personal experience, I'll beckon the coach and make sure I'm nowhere near by the time he gets to his player.

This is all well and good, but once the parent addresses me or so much as looks at me sideways, he'll be finished with that game.

Absolutely NOT! :mad:
Each of these parents have signed medical waivers in order for their children to play on the team. During the contest someone else is to tend to them. So as soon as mommy or daddy steps onto the court a one-way ticket to the parking lot has been earned.

I don't know whether anybody signed any kind of waiver or not, but whether they did or didn't, I don't see how that relates to anything in the rule book.

Here's what the general wording is on the Medical Emergency Authorization/Consent to treat form (thois text is from the sample form off the WIAA Website):

"As Parent or Legal Guardian, I authorize the team physician or, in his absence, a qualified physician to examine the above-named student and in the event of injury to administer emergency care and to arrange for any consultation by a specialist, including a surgeon, he deems necessary to insure proper care of any injury. Every effort will be made to contact parent or guardian to explain the nature of the problem prior to any involved treatment."

I know in WIAA Athletics, any person involved as a participant has to have this form on file with school before being allow to compete. In some school districts, I believe this also involves practices.

Additional on this form, the emergency contact info is required as well as the name of the physician responsible for the primary care of the student-athlete.

I don't see anything here about the parent being restricted from coming on the floor or doing anything else.

How I am reading the way the form is written, basically as long as the student-athlete is on the field/court for competition then all medical decisions are left up to the medical personnel present. Only after the student-athlete is off the field/court, can a parent become involved (basically behind the scenes).

Depending on the severity of the injury, the student-athlete will sit out the rest of that game, & then the next day the parent takes the student-athlete in to see their PCP.

How should a floor official react in a situation like the articles below, if a parent came out onto the floor?

Texas A&M's Derrick Roland injury video hits web as Aggies senior suffers gruesome injury

Texas A&M Aggies' Derrick Roland suffers gruesome broken leg - ESPN

Basically it sounds like from the various responses & the reaction of the parent(s) the response would vary.

I may have signed a waiver allowing other qualified personnel to attend to my child if s/he is injured during a sporting activity, but I will not have signed away my rights as a parent to tend to my child.

If my kid is injured that badly, I won't care to watch the rest of the game anyway.

That said, if the parent comes down and just deals with their child, I'll let GM make the call.

If the parent comes down and uses that opportunity to inform me of all the ways my mother went wrong when I was a child, I will make the call.

I don't read anything that sounds remotely like that. Treatment is authorized. Nothing is said about the treatment provided by said physicians being exclusive, while on the court or anywhere else.

I am not an attorney, but what I read is basically intended to free all persons related to the team from liability if there is a problem with treatment of the injury.

If Mom and Dad come out and scoop up the kid, I see nothing to prohibit them checking him out on the spot, taking him to the emergency room, or anything in between.

Very well put.

Totally agree. However, once I've beckoned the coach, I get as far away as I can get and remain there, hidden in plain sight, until it's time to resume my duties. Or until forced to get involved somehow, in which case I would take care of business.

My only objection here is to the ridiculous notion that by signing a medical waiver I am somehow prohibited from being directly involved in caring for my injured child.

So you consider when a mom steps out to hold her daughter's hand while she is assisted from the court after tearing her ACL to be unsporting conduct?

Doesn't sound very discreet to me.

What if a member of Game Management escorted the parent out onto the court to maintain some order?

Basically this is a catch-22 as that if the parent is only going out to comfort their child isn't viewed as unsporting behavior. However if that parent is going out to complain to the floor officials that their child was fouled & arguing the call it is considered unsporting behavior.

I can see if game management announced overhead that no one go onto the court except for the coach &/or medical personnel, but how often do announcements like that happen?

Again, this comes down to how game management should handle things as well as the floor officials.

If a player tears her ACL, she isn't going to be remaining in the gym anyway.

The general principle is that the playing area, no matter what the sport, is off limits to spectators. Only the game participants, officials, coaches, and medical personnel are to be there. Anyone else who violates this perimeter earns an ejection. That area must be inviolable.

This is the only policy which makes sense in order to ensure the safety of those involved with the contest.

You can be involved as long as you remain outside of the playing area. You can be consulted by those who are present to provide such care.

In the event that the injury is deemed serious, it makes sense to have your participation, but you aren't sticking around for the rest of the contest if you elect to enter the playing area and I am one of the officials.

I can't imagine that you would want to anyway, for if the injury is truly that serious, you would be accompanying your young one to another location for further medical treatment.

And on top of this, you would call a team technical?

If the person came out without the permission of game management--absolutely.

I may be wrong again, but I think I speak for us all when I say.......wow.

What about if the parent requesting to come out onto the court is a Dr./EMT/Nurse or other medical personnel?

What if the student-athlete has several allergies to medications that the parent knows about, but not the coach?

Not every coach is going to know the exact medical histories of all their players, nor will they have such files handy in case of such a situation.

There are extenuating circumstances that would allow parents to come out onto the court in a medical emergency.

But not rush out on his/her own without proper authorization.

Injuries happen in HS sports. Parents need to understand that when they give permission for their child to participate.

Double that wow. But it doesn't surprise me. Nevada says some pretty whacky things. This is just another one. :rolleyes:

I am sure mbyron reviewed the context of the spelling and gave it his blessing by omission.

I think this says it best! Deal with what needs to be dealt with, don't go looking for grief. Remember emotions will be very high in these situations.

I could not possibly care any less....

I would prefer to allow GM to deal with it. That seems to be the intent of 2-8-1.

OOO^∞ :rolleyes:

I have to admit to being surprised by Nevada's take on this. How do we, as officials, judge who is authorized by game management to tend to injuries? If someone comes out of the stands, they could be a local doctor who always helps with injuries as easily as a parent.

I'm with BITS in that I beckon and get away. Game management can take care of who comes on the court.

I'm always interested in how we approach things. Sometimes high school athletics are an extension of the classroom, a place for education where we enforce good sportsmanship and encourage teamwork and positive emotion. Other times we treat the game as so sacrosanct that we would (ask game management to) eject a parent who comes to the court to tend to an injured child and charge that team with a technical foul.

So a stupid basketball game is more important than a parent tending to their injured child. Not in this universe. How many kids do you have, anyway? None? :mad:

That is complete and utter BS. Only an idiot would try to prevent a parent from attending to their child when injured, or worse you, eject the parent for doing so.

Nevada, you totally missed the mark on this one.

**To all the newbies reading this thread, please be aware: NevadaRef can be a great source of information. But in some situations, he goes over the edge and tries to fit case plays and interps into situations where they don't work. In other situations, such as this one, he is completely and totally wrong in his approach. This maybe the poorest game management approach I have ever seen an official on this or any other board express. BTW, I also think it's BS. No way he ever pulls this stunt.

No, it was not appropriate to give the fan an ultimatum. You should never back yourself into such a corner with a coach, player, or fan.

Yes, the parent is a fan, no matter what he does.

No, he is not bench personnel.

To whack the fan would have been stupidity, as it's only going to rein more crap down on top of you.

Once someone is attending the player, back away as far as you need to. It could be an emotional situation, get way from it. Let game management handle the fan.

Handle the situation with some maturity and calm, not with emotion.

Amen
...and to all a goodnight

http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/a...7/clapping.gif

Common sense prevails.

Our instructions in the event of a player injury are to stop play and beckon the coach/trainer onto the floor, then step away from the situation and let them deal with it. Our time is better spent keeping track of what is going on with the rest of the players while the coach's attention is focused elsewhere. Penalize the team with a T for a concerned parent coming onto the floor? - no way! Distance from the situation can be your friend - if the officials are not in the immediate area, then they can't easily be approached by an upset parent. That alone will give them a chance to think twice before saying or doing something stupid. If they do it anyway, then their actions should be dealt with by game management in the same manner as they would with any other unruly fan.

Dealing with fans in general is the responsibility of game management. While the officials do have the authority under the rules to assess a T for fan behavior, it should be as a last resort. If a fan becomes aggressive or unruly and game management can't or won't control it, maybe, but even then I'd prefer to get law enforcement involved and let them deal with it. Further penalizing a team for the actions of an angry or unruly fan or fans has the potential of throwing gasoline on the flames.

Just to be clear on my position on this matter.
I'm not going to say a word to the parent or anyone who comes down out of the stands. I'm not going to try to prevent such a person from doing anything. However, I am going to insist that the boundaries of the playing area are respected and reserved for the participants. The spectators are to KEEP OUT. If that is not done, then I will penalize the team whose followers are responsible for that breach.

I have no problem if game management decides to bring in a parent or guardian down for consultation after deciding that an injury is very serious and this is done in the proper manner. However, I'm not going to suffer fools who rush in at the first cry from Johnny or Suzie.

We simply cannot have people coming out of the stands and onto the court whenever they please.

So, even though you have taken a slight step back on this matter, if the kid falls in a screaming mass and the parent quickly steps out to attend without first being properly identified, you still would consider this to be "conduct which interferes with the orderly progress of the game?"

I haven't stepped back at all. You simply didn't grasp my position correctly from the beginning.

No different than a coach rushing onto the court without proper permission.

Whack, buh-bye.

The NFHS rules on this are clear. People need permission to enter the court.

10.4.5 SITUATION B: A fight breaks out between A1 and B1 during a dead-ball
and clock-stopped situation. The head coach of Team A rushes onto the court.
RULING: A1 and B1 are charged with flagrant technical fouls and are disqualified.
No free throws are awarded for the double technical foul by A1 and B1. Since the
coach was not beckoned onto the court by an official, he/she is charged with a
flagrant technical foul and is disqualified. Team B is awarded two free throws and
the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the table.

Wow - big difference between coming onto the court because of a fight and an injured player. I just don't get your logic.

Intent of the Medical Waiver
 

We are talking about legal minors here, correct? The sole purpose of the waiver is two fold, first (but sometimes this is ommited) to release from financial liability the School and all named in the form. Second, to give permission for medical treatment as necessary to be rendered to a minor in the absence of the parent in a case where the parent is not present to give such permission in person. In most States (if not all), medical treatment cannot legally be rendered to a minor unless the injury is clearly life threatning. Essentially without direct parent permission, or the legal signed consent form, they have to be unconscious, or bleeding out. Hence the Medical Waiver is necessary to administer treatment. In no way is a consent form intended nor shall ever be interpreted to hold more weight than the actual parent. Cheagle- if the HS team Doctor is the top neuro surgeon in the country and the kid is unconscious on the floor, and Dad comes over picks kid up and takes kid to the hospital, the only thing everyone else in the building can, or should do is get the HE- double hockey sticks- out of the way! May not be the smartest thing to do, but NO PIECE OF PAPER holds more weight or power than thge parent. Not even the official scorer who apparently memorizes rule books, LOL

As for penalizing a team, or kicking a parent out of a game because the parent came down from the stands to check on their hurt child, well you can do that if you choose, and I can consider you to be a bloody moron if I choose for doing that, or even suggesting in a thread that you would.

The NFHS doesn't think so.

You hold the coach and the parent of an injured player to the same standard??

Interesting.

Ya' know, Nevadaref is right. A few seasons ago, I was training a HS kid to ref in a rec league game that was 3rd-4th grade girls. One of the girls went up to dunk the ball and wedged her wrist between the rim and the backboard and her arm ripped right off. When she fell to the floor, she bashed her head open. Her arm socket was shooting blood and there was brain matter falling out of the top of her open head.

Of course I waited for the other team, who had got the rebound, to finish their fast break before I blew the whistle and then beckoned the coach out. Then the girl's 90 year old grandmother stumbled out of the bleachers using her walker to come over to the girl. As soon as she stepped onto the court, I immediately physically picked her up off the floor, carried her to the door and threw her into the parking lot.

After all, she had no business coming out onto the floor, since I'm sure the girl's parents signed a waiver.

Oh yeah - I also hit that team with a flagrant technical and then I told the coach the girl couldn't return until the first dead ball following the ball becoming live.

That's what the rule says I should have done, right Nevadaref?

So even if the medical personnel say not to move the student-athlete, even though the parent does, that's ok?

What about the Hippocratic Oath?

"I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:
To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.

I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.

In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.

All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.

If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot."

If I was a coach or floor official, I would rely more on the professional judgement/opinion of a medical professional than a paranoid, frantic parent. Parents, true, are doing what they think is best for their child(ren), but at what cost?

So in all actually the only way a parent should be allowed on the court is if they are medical professionals. If not, they need to stay out of the way of those that are. Like I said before, a parent should be involved yes, but only after the student-athlete has been removed from the court & out of sight of all spectators.

If I was working crowd control in this situation, I would physically put myself between the parent & the student-athlete so that they could not become one until after removed from the court. One of the primary rules in crowd control is to de-escalate the situation before it gets blown out of proportion. By allowing the parent onto the court, you have just allowed a match to be lit in a potentially explosive situation.

way too much eggnog.

And if you get between me and my injured kid, there will be a much bigger problem. This is utter nonsense.

Actually from a crowd control POV, it makes perfect sense as it gives the medical personnel present a chance to appropriately evaluate the situation without interference.

Like I said before, the parent would be allowed to be involved but as a bystander until the student-athlete is off the court & either in the locker room or in the process of being transported either via the parent themselves or ambulance.

Wow. We are not talking about a fight. We are talking about an injured child. You talk as if there are paramedics on hand waiting to treat injuries. What's happening until the paramedics get there (assuming paramedics are even needed)? You are being ridiculous in your abuse of power. I can see where it comes from - you definitely have a power issue.

I won't, but security might.

You don't belong out there. It's that simple. I don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping this. The playing court is for the players and officials, no one else. PERIOD.

When there is an injury the appropriate people are beckoned on to attend to that individual.

OK I give up.

Good because Dad's butt belongs in the stands. That is the area to which his admission ticket entitles him, not the playing court.

For the sake of argument, let's say that a child suffers a life-threatening injury on the court and the game is stopped. What skills does the average parent have which is going to help that child? Unless the parent is an EMT (fireman/police/first response trained) or medical doctor what good is it going to do to have the person down there? Is it going to please you that your child was able to die in your arms?

What happens when your child is transported to the hospital for surgery? Does the surgeon permit mom and dad into the operating room? No, you sit in the hallway and wait while the appropriate people handle the situation. This is no different, but because there isn't a wall between the stands and the court people somehow feel entitled to come out there. People really need to get over their sense of self-importance and remain where they belong.

Actually Dave, from a legal standpoint he has no power. The parent or legal guardian of a minor is the only one that can consent or revoke permission to treat the minor in their charge. If the coach, trainer, paramedic, doctor, etc. wants to do something the parent can step in and say "don't touch my child" and that legally revokes any previous permission, written or otherwise. Anyone who interferes or attempts to interfere with a parent or guardian is committing one or more criminal acts - could be anything from custodial interference to assault and/or battery. This goes for a security guard or anyone else as well. The only entity that can override parental authority is a court of law. There would have to be significant extenuating circumstances to legitimately prevent a parent or guardian from going to the aid of or making decisions regarding the care of their child, and I can absolutely guarantee the NFHS "you can't come onto the court" rule won't qualify. If anyone tried to interfere with my going to the aid of or being involved in decisions regarding my injured child, I can guarantee they would be arrested - and I would pursue both criminal and civil actions.

Sometimes I can't believe the illusion of power some folks have!

OK, rant mode off.....

Congrats on hitting that 1000 post milestone!:D:D:D:D

Happy Holidays my friend! Heard it was snowing in Dallas today - keep warm & stay dry!

Thanks Tim! I was going to say something about a lawsuit but I really don't know anything about the legal issues involved so I didn't want to say something I had no backing for (what a concept, eh?). Anyway, I am not going to say anything more right now about this subject. I will let you and others carry on the argument. You can't have a rational argument with the irrational, after all.

Thanks for the kudos on the post count - where are my prizes??

It's like friggin' Oregon in Dallas today. And I am supposed to be catching a flight to Portland tomorrow - I hope it doesn't get cancelled. It's nasty here.

Merry Xmas, my friend...

Again, no one is attempting to prevent the parent from participating in their proper role as the legal decision maker for the injured child. Why are you equating a prohibition to run onto the court without proper authorization and/or escort with blocking the parent from making a legitimate medical decision? The two are totally unrelated.

The parent needs to remain in the stands until properly summoned if needed. You wouldn't contend that the parent is being prevented from fulfilling his/her proper role as the decision maker at the hospital because the person isn't allowed into the operating room would you? If something happens during a surgery and a doctor takes action in the course of the operation are you saying that you will try to have him arrested and pursue criminal and civil proceedings because you weren't permitted to be at your child's side holding his/her hand? Good luck with that.

a real situation
 

This is a situation that happened to me in a ball game several years ago.

Local rivalry game with one very talented team, and one not so talented. The better team (A) was struggling early and had just started to make a run that would give them an 8 point lead.

Team A made a series of substitutions and my partner had just given the ball to B for an inbound. I am near the division line when all of a sudden coach A starts screaming for TO. The actions and conduct of the coach were so out of character that I blew my whistle to stop the action. I looked at the end of Bench A and see one of the players that had just been removed from the game colapse to the floor in a heap. It didn't look as serious as it turned out to be. BTW game is being played in B's gym.

Parents and other family members are running onto the floor (there is not a lot of room on the endlines, they had to cross the floor somehow). People are on the phone calling 9-1-1. The player's mother is screaming at the top of her lung's to the player "come back to" "Shelia" over and over.

GM consisted of the coach and the scorer's table personnel and a few others that also had other school duties. Due to the financial situation of the school there really wasn't anyone there that could offer assistance. The officials on the game had no knowledge of any kind that this player had a condition. The young man died in front of everyone that night.

As officials, had we started blowing our whistle and tried to keep this player's family from him at this time we would have had far more trouble on our hands than we would have wanted.

My point being, even if the injury doesn't initially seem serious to you, there might be other factors at work and preventing family to come to a players aid is not our job, nor is it worthy of a T.

I also have had games where players got fouled and the resulting contact lead to a broken wrist and a blown out knee. We did our job and got out of the way of the people who knew the situation better than the officials did. We usually only see these kids for a 1.5 hours. Part of our job is safety of the players, not to determine who offers assistance.

If the parent still wishes to say something, let GM handle it.

Just my 2 pennies worth.

Hopefully Santa will leave a sense of perspective under the tree for you tonight. ;)

Do you have any experience in crowd control/security?

It's not an abuse of power, it's called keeping all unneeded personnel away from the scene to maintain order for the medical personnel on hand in order to do what they need to do. This regulation comes to play whether it's a college football game or a rock concert. I've worked both with similar situations. Whether it's on the court/stage/field or up among the patrons in the stands, in a medical assist circumstance the only people allowed to be directly involved are the medical personnel/first responders.

In the situation of a parent being involved during the initial processing is if the parent is themselves a medical professional, otherwise they must remian a spectator until their child is removed from the court.

The only time a parent is allowed to be involved during the whole process is if the child involved is a young child (8-10 & below in age).

Question:
"What skills does the average parent have which is going to help that child?"

Answer:
Medical History


A1 gets injuried, - Ref beckons A's Coach onto the court, a parent and a Doc rush the court to help without prior authorization. Is that one or two T's?

Again no one has advocated doing that.

I really wish that people would READ instead of react. :(

Am I the only one who sees this statement as ironic?

That information would be on the form filled out by the parent/guardian at the beginning of the season.

Yes, you are.

It is so like you to try to turn such a statement around and point it at an official who insists that people don't go where they shouldn't. You simply don't grasp the argument.

You probably have a picture of an official running over trying to stop the people from coming out of the stands. That is not realistic.

What is realistic is for the official to find a far away location until the situation finishes and then to assess whatever penalties are necessary for the conduct. That is a big difference from being personally involved, and that is what makes the people who run over "self-important" and the official not, hence there is nothing ironic about the original statement. Do you need a lesson in the usage of the word? mbyron can certainly fill you in.

Okay, no more name calling and sarcasm.............for now.:D

All these references to medical release forms, liability, and proper ways to treat injuries have one thing in common, they have nothing to do with basketball. A player is injured. The game stops from my perspective and the injured player gets top priority. If both parents, the trainer, the personal physician, and the priest all come out to attend, I don't see the negative effect on the game.

When the injury issue is resolved, my partner(s) and I will resume our duties.

So you stand back quietly and watch when Mom comes out to help her son up. When it turns out to be an ankle sprain, the son sits on the bench with an ice pack, but Mom has to leave? And the other team gets free throws??

Thanks, Mom.

There are two questions in this arguement.

One: Do you think Parents should come onto the court to see their injured Child?

Two: If Parent does come onto the court without being beckoned, would you give them a T?


I would rather the Parent's STAY in the stands, until waived onto the court by either me or the Coach.

I would not give a T to a parent in any case.

You think this way because you are not well-versed in the rules. Too bad that you don't read more and write less.

2-2-3 . . . The officials’ jurisdiction extends through periods when the game
may be momentarily stopped for any reason.

Kids are in bed, Santa is done... need to get a few hours sleep before kids wake up early tomorrow.

Merry Christmas

A parent can be involved throughout the whole process, however when medical personnel are directly involved, the parents are to be as active bystanders (answering medical history questions), not being in the middle of everything getting in the way.

If no medical personnel are available, the parent can become more directly involved.

I'm surprised it's not a regulation for all high school athletic events that EMS must be present. Apparently the NCAA has this regulation, as is what I heard after the unfortunate incident with Derrick Roland.

Unfortunately not all schools have the luxury of having Athletic Trainers available to them at all times.

That is a nice way to frame this debate.

Agree.

Disagree.

"The officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game."

Please describe said interference, because I don't see it.

You don't see entering the court without permission as improper? :eek:

I do. I don't see it interfering with the conduct of the game.

Then what sanction do you propose for that improper conduct?

If fan leaves gym with injured child, nothing. There is no interference with the game, nor future problem.

If fan wishes to remain in gym:
"Mr. Game-Management-Supervisor, please go speak with that person who came on the floor and remind them that they can't come onto the floor anytime they please. Thanks."

If fan was unruly towards anyone while on floor:
"Mr. Game-Management-Supervisor, please go speak with that person who came on the floor and escort them out of the facility before we resume the game. Thanks."

Again, the foul can be issued if it interferes with the game. I don't believe these actions interfere with anything, except for maybe the few cases where the medical personnel are bothered by overzealous nervous parents.

Agreed. And even then, it is not an issue for the officials to deal with.

First, no one takes this oath as a parent. Second, it's irrelevant.
Third, if I, as a parent, am at the game, I will make all decisions on my child's medical care with consultation of the doctors. I know my child's medical history better than anyone else in that building.

And yes, my parental rights trump everything else. If I make a decision, and some coach or doctor I don't know tries to stop me, there will be legal hell to pay like you've never seen.

And, if, as a parent, I decided I needed to be on the court with my child, you would be putting yourself in physical danger by trying to prevent me from getting on the court.

6 years ago, my younger brother (26 at the time) had cancer removed from his chest. That first night after surgery, he went into respiratory arrest due to a morphine overdose. My dad made it clear to hospital staff that they would have to have him arrested in order to keep. Do you think any other father would be different? Do you think any high school security person is going to keep him off the court?

The problem with the way that you are handling this is that there is absolutely no deterrent to spectators from coming onto the court whenever they deem it necessary.

I don't believe in permitting this type of behavior. Therefore, I favor having strong sanctions against it. You seem to be okay with random people coming onto the court during games which you officiate. I don't feel that that provides a safe environment for the participants and officials, so I'm not okay with it.

Smart move, Smitty. NevadaRef has tunnel vision, is never open to the possibility he could be wrong, and is entirely too dogmatic. Personally, I think he would make a very poor partner. :(

Here's the kicker. If I'm the parent, those medical personnel had damn well better be following my direction and allowing me to make the decisions. I'm there, consult me. You don't get to make those decisions without a parent's consent when the parent is there.

My only concern with the OP was the fact that the parent ripped into the officials. I guarantee you, if my kid is that hurt that I'm coming down, I won't even know the officials are there. It's me, my child, and the medics.

chseagle, sorry partner but you have no say in what I do if my child is injured in a game. If I choose to remain by his/her side during the entire time medical personnel are atending, that is what I will do. The best thing you can do is sit behind the scorer's table and say a prayer.

Random fans? Seriously, Nevada, we're talking about parents coming down during an apparently serious injury situation; not random fans strolling onto the court.

You gonna T the home team when some fans cut across the corner of the court on their way to the bleachers? No, you let GM deal with it until it actually affects the game.

Merry Christmas to you too. ;)

BTW I read an interesting sentiment lately...

"We have to do a much better job of creating a zone of predictability for players and coaches, of making officiating more of a science and less of an art."
"I came up at a time when refereeing was all feel. But coaches want absolutes. And referees should want absolutes."
John Adams, NCAA Coordinator of Men's Basketball Officiating

It seems that being dogmatic has a future. :)

Let it go, Adam. He can't see the forest for the trees.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Sorry, but your statement has no basis in fact from a legal standpoint. You clearly have no concept of the legal and ethical principles of informed consent regarding medical diagnosis and treatment and who can legally make related decisions. Except in extreme life threatening circumstances, medical personnel may not treat without consent.Those "signed permissions" some want to place so much stock in are only valid if the parent/guardian are not physically present to make the decisions in person.

Oh, and in response to the question you asked Smitty, I do have a law enforcement background with extensive training in security and crowd control - news flash....a parent attempting to go to the side of an apparently significantly injured child does not pose a threat from either standpoint. Preventing them from exercising their legal rights could, however, be a significant liability issue....and likely a criminal one as well.

I am not saying completely ban/bar the parent from assisting, however they should not be getting in the way of medical personnel by being right there by the student-athlete's side. I have had first responder training, due to having the security/crowd control training, in instances where a patron directly interferes with another patron getting direct medical treatment, the patron causing the interference will be asked to leave or will be removed to a safe distance. If by police intervention, so be it.

Anyone in the medical profession lives by the Hippocratic Oath, if harm is being done by someone being in their way, they have the right to have that person removed regardless of who that person is. If a parent gets in the way of a medical professional trying to save their child's life, & the medical professional cannot do their duty due to the interference, the parent can have charges brought against them (the charge would vary depending on the juridictional rules/regulations).

That's fine. Be there if you choose. Just accept the consequences of your actions like any other in life.

I must ask if you going to insist upon remaining by your child's side in the operating room too, and during the transport? If not, are you being consistent in your stance? I guess that I don't see why do you believe that you must stand right there and hover over the medical personnel on the basketball court, but not in the trauma ward at the local hospital?
Would you tell the doctors at the hospital that they cannot treat your child without you physically present in the room? I think that you are failing to see the big picture. For some reason you, like many others, are fixated on the emergency situation happening on a basketball court and somehow feel compelled to be right next to the scene. Got news for you, if your kid is injured in a car wreck and taken to the hospital via ambulance from the scene, you may not see your child until after the surgeon is finished. The most that you might get is a doctor/hospital administrator coming out into the hallway to fill you in on the situation and ask you to sign a treatment permission form. You actually getting to go back and see your kid is unlikely, if the situation is unstable.

I DGAF what training you have had. You try to physically stop a parent from getting to their child, you're asking for pain. Take it to court and roll the dice with the jury.

That said, we're not talking life threatening injuries on the court. But if we are, I'll be by my child's side while they treat him/her. And you did say you'd physically try to prevent that parent from getting onto the court. I'm telling you not to try it, for your own safety. You may have had crowd control training, but you have no idea what training that parent has had.

Chances are, we're talking about leg, arm, or maybe head injuries that are not life threatening. Again, do not get in my way. And if, as a first responder, you do not respond to my directions with regard to treatment, expect to lose your license for treating a minor without parental consent.