So I'll ask you the same question that I just asked BktBallRef, do you expect to be able to do that in a hospital trauma ward too? ;)

It would all depend on the jurisdictional rules/regualtions. It would also depend on the training that the crowd control/security personnel have as to what the charges can be. If the crowd control is licensed, more liability can be brought against them depending on their actions. However in most circumstances, for school sporting events the crowd control is normally school staff that are not licensed as crowd control/secuirty, or volunteers that may or may not have any training or be licensed.

In all situations it's always think about the situation as it's happening & what should & should not be done. Not always will a parent be a bother to medical personnel. Nowhere did I say completely ban them from giving input, this can still be done by not being directly involved.

And you think all this is related to whether or not you called a T?

If I can be present, I will be. I will make those decisions. I have that right. Look, I've been around sports long enough to know injuries happen. I'm not going to be rushing down there unless it looks severe.

But, as an official on the court, I'm not going to prevent nor punish a parent for making a different choice than I would make for my child. There may very well be issues with that child's health that any first responders may need to be aware of.

If GM wants to do something about it, they can. If they don't, I'm ok with that.

No way I go into the OR, either, per your question to BktBallref. But I will have made the decisions necessary for that surgery to happen if I was able to do so. If I was not, it won't be because some overzealous "crowd control" kid stopped me.

Sterility? That's your rationalization? Get real. The clothes that the injured individual was wearing when the brought him in aren't sterile. This isn't a planned surgery either. This is a trauma ward. The doors swing wide open and people come and go. So you are off the mark here.

Got further news for you. In the vast majority of emergency cases the parent wouldn't even be able to watch the surgery through the window. Yep, that's right, you wouldn't be able to observe every little thing that those doctors are doing to your little one like you somehow believe that you are entitled to do on the basketball court.

You need to spend some time trying to figure out why you feel that way and why you think that it is correct. You come off like a fanboy who has never read a rules book talking about basketball plays. Neither you nor BktBallRef seem to be familiar with the inner workings of a hospital trauma ward in the slightest.

Here is the quote I object to:

Of course it is. The T is for someone going where they are not permitted or authorized to be. Plain and simple.

What would happen if a parent burst into the OR to be with his/her child during surgery at a hospital? The police/security would likely be called and the person would be removed, and depending upon the conduct and resistance it's possible that criminal charges could be filed. There are rules and regulations which are in place and need to be followed even in the face of injury to loved ones.

People here seem to be saying, "My kid is hurt," equates to "throw all the rules out the window." That's not how our society works in daily life, and it shouldn't be any different on the basketball court.

Did somebody delete a post? I don't follow any of this.

Look, my point was I realize I don't belong in the OR because I wouldn't know my nut from my eyeball in there. I also realize that parental rights may or may not conflict with basketball rules, so often times a parent will have to choose between insisting on their rights and avoiding punishment in the gym.

There are a few things that I'm saying in this.

1. I have the right as a parent to be down there. Whether that's the right, proper, or "legal" (WRT basketball rules) thing to do is irrelevant.
2. If I decide to do it, don't get in my way.
3. As an official, I'm not going to call a T on a parent here. If they verbally accost me or my partners, I'll have GM remove them. If they tend to their child, I'll leave it up to GM to decide what to do.
4. Just because you can squeeze the situation into a rule for a T doesn't mean you should.

Sorry, I deleted mine without thinking. I mentioned that I wouldn't be in the OR because of sterility reasons. It wasn't the only reason, but it may have been the only reason I gave.

Yeah, it appears that Snaqwells changed post #104 while I was responding to it. He had originally written that he couldn't be in the OR because he would ruin the sterility of the environment.

You would issue another T for that?

All the rules? No The rule you are trying to apply to the situation? Yes

In other words, would allow the medical personnel the room needed to perform their duties without direct interference. When I said "be one" I was meaning be side-by-side to their injured child with direct interference to medical personnel. There always are extenuating circumstances, no matter how a person sees things. However, a person of sound mind & judgement would allow the medical personnel the room needed to perform their duties for the treatment of the injured.

A parent running out onto the court to be by the side of their injured child, is not considered at the time to be of sound mind & judgement.

A parent can still be involved in the decisions of a child's medical treatment without being right there directly next to the child.

Our stances on this are more similar than they are different.
We both realize that parents don't belong in certain places and that applies to hospitals as well as basketball courts.
Neither of us as an official is going to get into a parents way if they decide to charge out onto the court to reach an injured child.
Where we differ is in what we are going to do afterward.
I'm going to have GM remove the individual for sure, and most likely will assess a team technical foul. I'm not leaving the decision of what to do up to GM. It is the official's space which has been violated here.
If the spectator decides to accost any of the officials while being out on the court, I am certainly assessing a technical foul and might even forfeit the game, depending upon what the official was subjected to. For example, if physical contact occurred, then I would deem that the school administration has failed to provide a safe environment for the officials to conduct the athletic activity, and terminate the contest.

I feel that we as officials allow too much garbage from spectators and parents. I've grown sick of it and far less tolerant over the years. I'm tired of seeing the level of sportsmanship decline and believe that it is high time that we take action and do something about it. You will likely note this sentiment throughout many of my responses in various threads. Why people in our society believe that an athletic contest is an open invitation to be abusive to others is beyond my comprehension, but it is unquestionable that many think that way and act that way.

One wouldn't hear an adult yelling nasty things at a 16 year-old girl in the supermarket, but because she happens to be wearing a uniform with the name of the opposing school on the front of it she is somehow worse than a communist dictator and can be subjected to all sorts of indignities.

I guess that I have just become jaded in my old age, but I'm tired of it.

Maybe it was chseagle's statement "If I was working crowd control in this situation, I would physically put myself between the parent & the student-athlete so that they could not become one until after removed from the court."
or yours "I won't but security might."


Actually they are very much related. Preventing a parent immediate access to the child in order to gain the information they may need in order to make decisions, in and of itself violates that right.

The bottom line is that basketball rules are just that - they have no legal standing. By contrast, the rights I've referred to are derived from portions of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th and 14th amendments to the constitution and numerous case law decisions dating back to the early 1900's.

The game is already interrupted for the injury. A parent entering solely to evaluate the nature and extent of an injury to their child is not disrupting anything, and in reality may help the situation resolve more quickly. T away if you want - by rule you can.....just be prepared to be crucified in the court of public opinion.

Anyway, I'm done here...this one's been flogged enough!

So what does that part have to do with a parent coming down to check on their kid, and says NOTHING to the officials?

I was watching a game recently and a player from the Visitors rolled an ankle after trying for a rebound. When the officials stopped play, the trainer and coach were beckoned on the court. The player's father walked out of the stands and along the endline to check on her. It was a fairly severe sprain as he and a police officer helped her to the locker room. The parent didn't say anything to the officials and didn't even look at them.

So with your logic Nevada, you would have the parent removed from the gym, and assess a team technical for that? You may do things drastically different in your neck of the woods, but I'm 99 percent sure that if a T was given in the above situation locally, the officials involved would be in serious dog doo-doo with the association.

If a parent comes out of the stands to check on their kid and says anything to the officials, the situation changes completely.

Rules reference?

The T or not to T reference is Rule 2-8-1. As the parent coming onto the floor without being summoned is considered unporting behavior by a spectator, altugh extuating circumstances are the cause.

Basically kind of a cause & effect, with the cause being a child getting injured & the effect being the parental instinct to check on their child by going out onto the court.

That is absolute BS. Seriously - stick to running the clock. You have no concept of the intent or understanding of the rules from an official's perspective. In many ways, you are more wrong than 'representing' to be giving any advice here in this forum.

In the case of an injured player, the game is already stopped. There is no orderly progress of the game at that point. Penalizing the team with a T is the absolute wrong thing to do if the parent is only attending to their injured child. What problem does this solve? How does this, in any possible way, make the game better?

As I stated beforehand, the parent going out onto the floor is a cause & effect.

True, the game has been stopped, but how often in situations of a student-athlete being injured, is a parent actually summoned to come down for assistance?

How wluld the NCAA or NBA/WNBA handle the situation if a player was injured & the player's parent(s) came rushing to their side in the middle of the court?

Same thing can be asked of NFL, MLB, NASCAR, MLS, NHL, IFL, AF1, WWE, TNA, & other sports officials, no matter what the sport is.

For example: what would happen if David Stockton (son of John Stockton) got injured when Gonzaga was playing against the University of Portland, & John (his father) came rushing down onto the court to be by his son's side although he wasn't summoned/given permission?

You are a control freak. I have no doubt. Your argument is baseless. The difference between any of the leagues you mentioned and high school sports is that THESE ARE CHILDREN!!! As I said there is no way to have a rational argument with the irrational.

There are exactly two people arguing for the case of calling a T because a parent comes onto the court unbeckoned to attend to their injured child. You are both power mongers. A solution looking for a problem. Hammers looking for a nail....

Oh and in any situation where I didn't ask you for your help and you pulled this one out of your a$$, especially this situation, my response would be a firm "Shut up or I will have you replaced".

chseagle (clock/crowd control boy) has worn out his welcome on this board if you ask me.

This is not punishable by a technical foul under 2-8-1. Read (actually read) 2-8-1 and tell me what these spectators have done that interfere with the proper conduct of the game. In addition to that, the 2-8-1 also states to use discretion, so even if you find something that interferes with the proper conduct of the game, it has to be so painfully obvious that it definitely deserves to be penalized and the penalty is "just" to the offending team*. (*Even though the action isn't by a team member.)

i've had the parent "kind of" shove me out of the way to see about her injured kid. this after encouraging him loudly to : grab the ball , get him ! i'm glad to get the advice of get out of the way and spread out .

In cases of fights and injuries if the HC comes on the court I consider him/her beckoned. I am not going to whack them for that. Call me a coward.

Kind of similar, in the Texas A&M vs Washington game, the A&M coach rushed onto the court after Derick Roland broke his leg...during live play. Using common sense, they didn't go by the latter of the law and give the head coach a technical foul though he technically wasn't beckoned onto the court.

Nevada is ... unbelievable!

OK, lets suppose that you are the one in need of medical treatment. Let's say you are having symptoms of a heart attack.

There are no trainers there to assist you, but one of the players parents happens to be a heart surgeon. They come running onto the floor.

You are saying that you would T the guy up for interfering with the game. I hope he doesn't take it personally ;) since it is going to cost his kid's team 2 FT's and the ball in a 1 pt game with less than a minute to go.

Great call ref :rolleyes:, at least you had the last word.

Mostly because he states that pro wrestling is a sport and uses "sports officials". Can't give any credibility to anyone who thinks that.

Not a sport?:eek: Doesn't use sports officials??:confused:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_GI8idJ1yqW...wking.com).jpg



You need more proof than this? :rolleyes:

Plenty of crowd control at that event, I'll bet.

Photo of two actors.

I'm putting myself in the place of the parent here rather than the official.

1. You will not stop me, and any attempt will be met with force. It may or may not be right, but that's how it is; so your best bet is to stay out of the way. You will not stop me from being at my child's side. You will not determine whether I'm interfering with medical personnel. Don't even try it.

2. You are not qualified to determine whether I am of sound mind. Any attempts to get between me and my child by you are likely to affect my sound mind, however. I'm normally not a violent person, nor are most people. Try separating a parent from their child, however, and things change drastically and quickly.

3. Perhaps, but you do not get to make that choice. The parent does.

Why do you insist in telling a parent in this situation what's best for them? How old are you again? Do you have children?

Medical first responders are trained to deal with parents here, because they have to get their input and permission to so much as give them pain killers.

And to answer a question Nevada asked before. Would I go in the ambulance? If there was room, you're damned right I would. If not, I'd be there ASAP. Let's just say the odds of me beating the ambulance to the hospital are pretty good.

Actors? Say it ain't so!! One finely conditioned athlete and one highly trained professional sports official.

It depends. If it was a Jay Burson type injury, I doubt anyone would say anything. If it was an ankle roll, John isn't coming down.
Mainly, though, it's not the same thing. You're talking about adults verses 14-18 year old kids.

And Smitty's right, if a scorer so much as mentioned calling a T to me in this situation, I'd firmly remind him to mind his own duties and stay out of mine. Frankly, that goes for a lot of the things you think the scorer can jump in on.

My son was involved in bike vs. truck accident at home while I'll was at work. My job is twice as far from the hospital as my job, but I beat the ambulance there by a long shot.

So, is it a technical foul every single time bench personnel/spectors rush onto the court following a last-second shot?

This entire thread has spun a bit out of control, but it's an excellent read.

I had a recent example of a parent coming onto the court. Girls' V game. Girl goes down awkwardly when attempting to defend a shot (and gets called for a block in doing so) and obviously breaks her wrist/arm. Pretty nasty looking.

Beckon the coach immediately, move away. Mom comes out of the stands without being beckoned/without permission. She holds her daughter's hand while the coach and trainer attend to her and an administrator calls ahead to the hospital. Etc, etc.

Girl and mom leave with the trainer to head to the hospital.

We resume. No technicals.

Would a technical foul have made the game better? Not in a long shot. Was it deserved? In absolutely no way. Mom didn't interfere with the game, in fact, she calmed her daughter which likely helped get the game underway faster and with less emotional distress for others.

I can understand a desire to keep parents off the court in most cases. I can even see if someone wants game management to talk to fans/specific parents after an incident to let them know it would be appropriate to wait to be beckoned.

Asking GM to eject them and then issuing a technical foul is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. And the T is completely without rules support. I'm shocked Nevada has taken a position so unsupported by the rules and in contradiction to the spirit of the rule referenced.

A steroid monkey and the NBA supervisor of officials. :D

I've got an idea......

Crowd and fan control is the responsibility of the home team's management. Why not simply let the home team's management take care of the problem...just like the rulebook tells you to to do?

No muss, no fuss and no stoopid "T"s called on a team for events that they had no control over. All you have to do is point out the offending party to the chseagles of the world and tell them what you want done(if anything). And then just sit back and wait for them to do their job(their job, NOT your job). Doing it that way keeps both Nevada and his pet rat happy, as well as the other 99.999% of officials that disagreed with Nevada. Everybody gets their own way. Nevada can have the grieving parent banished from the kingdom; everybody else can just go with the flow.

Unless you're in a real big hurry to get home and watch Cougar Town on the National Geographic Channel, that kinda sounds like it's not a bad idea to me.

JMHKGO.....

'Roid Rage ???
 

But also an actor, maybe not an Academy Award winning actor, but, nevertheless an actor. They certainly put on a good, well received, show, yes, a show, for our brave soldiers in Afghanistan last week.

Be careful. Their boss may be the next United States senator from the State of Connecticut. Wouldn't it be great to be watching CSPAN and see Linda McMahon throwing a folding chair at Senator Harry Reid?

Phil or Arlen? Arlen is with an e I believe.

toe may toe toe mah toe

Concerning riding in the ambulance, here the only people allowed in the ambulance in the ambulance is the driver & ambulance crew along with the patient, no one else is allowed to ride into the hospital, even when there is room, due to new insurance that has been put into effect.

In the cases where people rush out onto the field/court after the final horn sounds, some of the blame is that officials are not fully enforcing the rules, while some of the blame is that the crowd control/security has been told to allow it, even though it is considered unsporting conduct.

A very good reasoning to allow the parent down on the court is that yes they can calm the child & assist the attending medical personnel with the case history, it just depends on the severity of the injury.

In the situation with Derrick Roland, everyone else was on the other end of the court when the coach rushed out to his side. It was after the made attempt on the other side that play was stopped after everyone realized the seriousness of what was happening.

No.

Enforce what after the final horn? If an official is doing his job, he's getting the heck out of dodge as soon as the horn is blowing. As soon as were away from the visual confines of the court, our jurisdiction ends. Spectators rushing the court is a game management issue. And in reality, how many times are fans really rushing on the court? :confused: Once, maybe twice a season at most?

And the point about the Derrick situation is there was a technical violation of the rules but the officials used common sense. The head coach was on the court during a live ball and was not beckoned.

For crying out loud, this is so irrelevant it's not even funny. It's like arguing with my 9 year old. It's partly my fault for answering Nevada's red herring, however....

A quick search on the 'net will show that policies vary all over the place due to insurance and other reasons. Some will only allow it in the case of children, others will allow the parents to ride in the front seat.

Again, not relevant, though.

Again, this displays your thorough lack of understanding the rules. Once the game is over, the officials do not hold any responsibility for fans coming onto the court or field. How in the world are you putting that on the officials? I'm seriously curious about that statement.

It's 100% game management/crowd control. And, FWIW, I wouldn't expect a staff of 6 people to prevent a crowd from storming the court after a big win. That's when you just sit back and try to take names for charges later if the school chooses to do so.

If they were playing at the Chiles Center in Portland, I don't think the staff there would see this as a big deal. But then, I know plenty of people at UP and they have plenty of common sense. ;)

I was using the University of Portland as an example, remembering that UP is a WCC rival for Gonzaga.

Concerning the insurance issue with the ambulance, it's recently been changed to where the only people allowed with the patient is the ambulance crew. My family does not like the policy, especially since used to riding in to the hospital via shotgun in the past.

Concerning the situations where I've seen the fans rush the court/field, the officials are still within the visual confines of the playing surface. Also I did not say that the officials bear the full blame, I also said that crowd control is to blame as well. Of course, overall Game Management should announce throughout the game to remain off the court, but how often are announcements like that done? For the games where I've seen this happen in person, the announcements are non-exsistent.

Yes the Texas A&M coach could of/should of been T'd, but due to the seriousness of the injury nothing was done. All the time, it comes to a person's judgement whether or not to assess the penalty or not.

It's Christmas. You shouldn't insult your 9-year old.

Most of the times I've seen people rush the court, there's been more than 6 people working crowd control. Most, if not all the time, the crowd storms the court/field, the losing team has not been granted the opportunity to exit to the locker rooms. How can that not be considered unsporting conduct, especially if the fans say something to the losing team that has a negative impact or could cause a fight?

I've already apologized to her. She's too busy with her Christmas loot to notice.

No official that I know of would call a T on the coach there. Typically, when there is an injury, the only punishment for a coach coming onto the court is to assume he's been beckoned and then require the player be replaced or the coach burns a TO. So, while it "could" have been called, no official would say it "should" have been called.
And, FWIW, the severity of the injury has little to do with it here.

You think the officials bear some responsibility for actions that take place after their job is done. They're off the court, halfway to the locker room, and you expect them to do something about the crowd? What rule do you suggest they invoke here?

I was thinking of the circumstances where the officials are not off the court due to the crowd rushing onto the court. Like I mentioned before, I'm not putting the full responsibility on the officials, as it also falls upon the game management & crowd control.

In the situation, like I mentioned before, the losing team is unable to leave the floor due to the fans rushing the court & some of the fans say something to the losing team that could incite a fight or other negative relations.

Couldn't rule 2-8-1 be put into use here? If the officials cannot leave the floor.

If the officials are off the floor, yes it does fall upon the game management & crowd control to get the situation under control.

I know you don't think they bear full responsibility. I'm telling you they bear zero responsibility. If they aren't off the floor, there are other problems. Let me put this clearly for you.

Officials have no crowd control responsibilities. None.

That all falls, 100%, on game site management.

If the officials can't get off the floor due to the crowd, that's a problem that will be reported . Part of GM responsibility is to allow the officials to leave quickly.

No, rule 2-8-1 cannot be used in this case. Read it carefully, please.

I'll pull the relevant portion out for you: "The officials may may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game."

The game is over, so that's impossible. This rule is pretty much there for those cases where the fans get together and decide to throw toilet paper or empty water bottles or diapers onto the floor during the game; at least that's how I understand it. Johnny's dad shouting obscenities doesn't count, either.

If game management cannot properly run a facililty, it's not on the officials to enforce any rules to help them.

Thanks for the clarification on that.

So basically all the officials can do then is write & send in a report tot heir assignor & local/state association where the host could possibly have sanctions put against them for improper crowd control procedures. Or is there more that I'm missing?

That's about right. And the only way we're doing that is if we somehow feel threatened or impeded in getting off the court. The reason is, that's the only way we'll know.
By the time the teams do their handshake and actually try to get off the court, we've got our shoes off.

Unless it's a certain state in the northeast, right? Or is that OBE?

LOL, yeah I was thinking about that when I wrote it.

If the game is over and the officials have left the visual confines of the court, then even a report is more the responsibility of the host school than of the officials.

Frankly, I wouldn't even notice the rest of the crap you mentioned by that point.

Bob,

I was thinking of the scenario if the floor officials were unable to get off the court due to the crowd rushing onto the court. Of course, if the officials are already out of the visual confines there's nothing they can do.

C'mon, can't you think of, maybe one?

I think we need to give up and defer to the old adage "Never argue with an idiot - he'll only drag you down to his own level then beat you with experience." He is so blatantly wrong on so many counts that there is no point listing them. Clearly a loose cannon - hope whatever school he works for has good liability insurance....they're probably going to need it.

Did you make it to Portland OK? Hope you enjoy the rest of the Holidays!

160+ posts in this thread and I just can't help myself, so here goes:

I don't care if a coach or parent is beckoned or not. If a kid is injured to the point where a coach and/or parent feels like he/she needs to come out, I've beckoned them (maybe retroactively). My first supervisor gave me this piece of wisdom back in the late 1980s and I've lived by it since then.

Then I get the hell out of the way and let those who have a stake in this do their thing.

On top of this, if the parent says something to me due to an emotional response of seeing her kid hurt on the court, I'm likely going to give that a pass, too. Same with the coach, although I may give the coach a bit less rope.

Under no circumstances would I ever issue a technical foul for this or banish anyone from a gym. I'd have to have left my common sense at home to choose the nuclear option for something like this.

Rich - everything you state here makes absolute sense. Thanks. :)

only a moron would tread into these shark infested waters ,but here goes ; i stepped on the court on my way to the stands going to watch a H.S. V. game and i didnt get thrown out. total anarchy ! 2. human nature cant be stifled and a parent won't be denied access to a hurt child , no matter how minor it may subsequently turn out to be . rational thinking is not what it should be at these times. 3. thanks to all the pro's here that would maintain the highest standards of the profession while using sensible judgement that wouldn't escalate an unpleasant and tense situation. lesson learned, next?

Very well said, Rich.

I think that this is an important point, and another excellent reason for getting away from the injured player ASAP.

Oxymoron. :(

A parent running on to the floor to check their child isn't of sound mind and judgment but is allowed to make decisions on their medical treatment? :confused:

Wow, are you an attorney, or did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

Well, here we have it. We've looked for an expert that can answer any question we have in any instance of life and he is now here. chseagle appears to be an expert on everything. My young firend, you would do wise to read more and post less.

You speaketh the truth BBR

Some of the best advice on this entire thread as it applies to the rest of the internet as well.

A truly ironic post :)

Another question occurred to me: All this talk about ejecting the fan.
"one way ticket to the parking lot" etc.

What gives the official the power to do this?

2-8-1:

.....home management is responsible......

.....officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way.......

.....officials shall stop the game until .......management resolves the situation....

Resolving the situation is in the eye of the beholder, is it not.

Picture this. A game is going on in, oh, let's say Las Vegas for example.
An irate fan throws a bottle on the court. Official stops the game, points out the offender. "I want that guy out of here."

The head game management guy (assisted by the crowd control guy) says,
"Not necessary. He took his meds. He's calm now. It won't happen again.
The situation is resolved. Let us proceed."

Then what happens?

I tend to read more and post less.
But I just had to say it... Wow.

Home management is responsible for the fans. If they assure me that they've resolved the situation, that's good enough for me. However, that's a one-time caveat in that particular game. If anything further happens, then I will stop the game and get the fan removed. And the game will stay stopped until the fan is completely outa there.

No matter what, a full report should go in, post-game. Detail the incident(fan throwing bottle) as well as the resolution(home management assuring you that they took proper steps). Put the onus for fan behavior where it really belongs-- on home management and whomever your report goes to. And let whom your report goes to second-guess game management and set procedure if they feel compelled to do so. That way you did your job and nobody can second-guess you.

JMO.

That was YOU?????????

Great advice JR! Document, document, document

My wife's a nurse, and a main principle they have in the medical field is "if it isn't written down, it didn't happen". We have similar standards in the engineering field.

Details are important, but only include facts or direct observations - avoid opinions. Initially, write everything down as soon as possible after the incident. Keep the actual report short as possible and to the point - don't be overly verbose. Include verbatim quotes, especially when it involves obscenities, accusations, threats or an alleged statement of fact by another party that you are expected to accept (i.e.; game management). Writing it from third person perspective helps.

And that's great advice for all of us too, Tim.

Look for the kid from the student section! He's the one in the red T-shirt and blue jeans. :D

YouTube - NVECapture.0008.mpg

Great video! Super learning tool there!

Concerning that fan running out onto the floor there at Beasley Coliiseum, the game management & crowd control were not doing their jobs properly. Of course, if WSU is still using the company I think they are for crowd control, this wouldn't surprise me much. Guess this means that the company needs to train it's Ambassadors better.

So Nevada..
 

What do you personally do in cases where the stands are only a few feet from the edge of the court, and the fans are constantly walking onto the edge of the playing court durring play,as they go from stands to snack bar, or stands to the bathrooms, etc? This happens all the time in tight little gyms. Do you stop play and administer justice Nevada? Do you have an over-zealous CHighSchooleagle type watching closely for these court violations, and tip you off? Or do you divert your own attention away from the game to watch for these violations of your's and the players soveriegn space?

Do you use your common sense and good judgement to ignore these violations of the playing court space as long as they are brief and unatrusive to the game? Then when it actually matters, when there is actual emotion attached to the situation -as in a player down- do you then choose to step in and do something about it?

Seems like a pretty silly question, doesn't it? It's actually less silly than your position about a parent coming out of the stands to provide comfort and concern to their child.

WOW! I'm beginning to get it...
 

The WHAT??? Serious? I defy you to come up with anything remotely more irrelevant to this situation that the Hippocratric Oath. It's an OATH man!!! It's not regulatory, it's not law, and it has no weight in this situation at all. Legally, no EMT, paramedic, doctor, or any kind of medical professional has the authority to over rule the parent of a legal minor.

Yes, it's ok for a parent to move their child against the best advice of the medical personnel present. It's ok legally, and that's a very different thing from it being the smartest thing to do. Moving a kid may be the worst thing to do, but it doesn't matter. It's the parents right to do as they choose. To the point of insisting on no treatment for a life threatning injurty or illness. A Medical Waiver form is intended ONLY to give permission for a minor to be treated in the absence of the parent's direct consent. In no way what so ever does a Consent Form give up a parents rights or authority to anybody else. Any serious attempts to interpret this form as over-riding a parents authority is just asking for trouble- even if you're ethically or morally correct.

While I'm at it... standing in between a concerned parent and their injured child is not defusing or de-escalating a situation. It is certainly not good crowd management by any stretch. It would very likely have exactly the opposite effect of calming the situation, and would be a very dumb thing for you to do. If you step aside, nothing happens beyond perhaps some resentment from an over-zealous and miss guided rules nazi who should never be in charge of managing people. If you block the parents path, now you do have a potentially volatile situation which has been incited and escalated by you! Hell hath no fury greater than the concerned parent who is told to stay back. This could easily end up with you punched and the parent arrested; when all you needed to do was step aside like an intelligent person would do.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't officiate in any such gyms in my local area.

"Sense of self importance?"
 

Bad analogy, completely different situation. In this case, the parent has given their consent to the surgeon either by the medical waiver form, or much more likely by the forms signed at the hospital. In any case, consent has been given by the parent to the doctor. In the case of a player down, there is nobody on that court who the parent has given their consent to. Mom and Dad are still ultimate authority. They can refuse the surgery even against the best medical advice.

Your idea of who might want to consider their sense of self importance is a good idea, as often our best ideas are the ones we realize are for and about our selves, even when we originally though they were intended for others.

This hypothetical situation has nothing to do with any sort of sense of self importance. The very idea is an injury and insult to intelligent linear thought. When a baby comes out of your vagina, there's a very strong emotional attachment that can cause an adult to forget all about silly rules when they see their child hurt on the floor. THis is of the deep care, concern, and passion a parent has for their child, which has zero to do with a sense of self importance.

I know I'm a howler monkey, so automatically I have no credibility, but I've read a lot of your comments, and I used to think you were a pretty sharp referee who exhibited a good measure of smarts. But your comments in this thread are just bizzare.

Who in this entire thread said anything about "random people" coming onto the court during a game? Oh, I see, only you have said that. So if you say it, is everyone else just supposed to assume someone who you're arguing against (everyone) said it, and you're quoting them?

when engaged in an argument with multiple persons, one realizes that they are the lone person representing their opinion, while numerous others have a different opinion, one may want to reconsider their position, (hint, hint) unless of course they are incapable of doing that.

Dude, there's no such thing!
 

There is no such thing as a licensed crowd control. Not even a police officer is a "licensed" person. There is a very significant legal difference between someone who holds a "license," and someone who holds a "certification." No State, organizing body, or anything else you want to call it or can come up with offers a licence for crowd control. There's just no such thing, got it?

Sometimes less is more, and you're proof of that. The more you say, the more evident it is that you don't have any idea of what you're talking about. One of the biggest liabilities in any situation is somebody who has training, but very little experience. Training is necessary, but experience is far more valuable than training. Training without a lot of experience only qualifies someone for "training wheels." Training without a lot of experience qualifies a person to follow the direction of someone who does have experience.

Stay behind the table. Don't get up till the game is over unless it's to get your free hot dog. Don't interact with coaches, players, or fans. Let the teams or the referee's take care of untucked jerseys, resist the urge to say something. In fact, as if your life depended on it, resist all impulces to do or say anything more involved with the game than your job. If barely anybody in the building has noticed your presence, you've probably done your job well.

Great clip of a fan running onto to the floor during live ball play.

It has absolutely nothing to do with a parent coming onto the floor to check on his/her child who has an injury that is being attended to during an injury timeout.

OMG, are you for real???
 

Once again, in your case, less is more. Stop trying to make your point. The more you say, the worse it gets. You are only burying yourself deeper and deeper under the debris of your past comments.

All of those people you mention, "NFL, MLB, NASCAR, MLS, NHL, IFL, AF1, WWE, TNA, & other sports officials, no matter what the sport is," are OVER 18 YEARS OF AGE!!! THEY ARE NOT LEGAL MINORS!!!

Your post is completely irrelevant.... AGAIN!!!

not surprising...
 

This is not surprising at all, as no doubt your family probably frequently needs to come visit you in the hospital. Because if you actually go around doing the kinds of things in real life that you talk about doing in here, I'm guessing you probably get beat up a lot. ;)

You're not putting anything anywhere, hypothetically or otherwise. You don't have the authority, nor the knowledge. You hold no license, and your certification won't even get you a cup of coffee at an AA meeting (it's free). In fact, it would appear that your contribution here is primarily that of unintended comic relief. Which grows less and less appealing by the post, because the intent is to be taken seriously, which is not a possibility.

bbcoach7, After reading your posts on this thread, all I can say is....

BRAVO! BRAVO!

Oh yeah, very classy. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...thumbsdown.gif

It's one thing to express a different opinion, but a completely different matter to just fling insults at someone and thoughts of physical violence.

Congrats on following him down into the gutter.

...........I, myself, was so obnoxious, the seniors used to beat me up once a week. ***

http://blogs.e-rockford.com/movieman...9/02/otter.gif



***Eric Stratton "Otter"