Question about player and 4 quarters per night...

[offici88]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Just to be clear; if your association wants you to have an answer, fine. But to me, any answer that has to be prefaced with "I'm not exactly sure, but...." is best not given in this circumstance.

And telling the coach "I can't answer" isn't being a jerk, it's being honest. And, again just IMO, any assigner who asks you to have an answer is just asking for trouble down the road.

I see a big difference between "I'm not exactly sure, but..." and "It's not my jurisdiction, but my understanding is..."

I see a question about quarters on par with suspension for ejection.

For example, after a game in which I toss a player, a coach asks "Does he miss my game tomorrow?" I likely respond with the process "I submit a report. The State Association is in contact with your AD. It's not my ruling, but I understand that the player is suspended for a game. Contact your AD for the official ruling."

Now, that's my opinion and how I choose to handle it. I give no definitive interpretation. I merely try to point the coach in the right direction. I draw from common knowledge that ejection = suspension. I get asked because I'm an official but do not relay the official notification of suspension.

I don't think anyone else is a jerk if they reply "I can't answer" or anything like that. However, I've taken that route as well and felt like a jerk. That's what I speak to. I don't go out of my way to clarify with coaches, just like I don't seek their approval when I call a foul. I hear a question, I have some knowledge, I share what I know.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by offici88

I see a big difference between "I'm not exactly sure, but..." and "It's not my jurisdiction, but my understanding is..."

I see a question about quarters on par with suspension for ejection.

For example, after a game in which I toss a player, a coach asks "Does he miss my game tomorrow?" I likely respond with the process "I submit a report. The State Association is in contact with your AD. It's not my ruling, but I understand that the player is suspended for a game. Contact your AD for the official ruling."

Now, that's my opinion and how I choose to handle it. I give no definitive interpretation. I merely try to point the coach in the right direction. I draw from common knowledge that ejection = suspension. I get asked because I'm an official but do not relay the official notification of suspension.

I don't think anyone else is a jerk if they reply "I can't answer" or anything like that. However, I've taken that route as well and felt like a jerk. That's what I speak to. I don't go out of my way to clarify with coaches, just like I don't seek their approval when I call a foul. I hear a question, I have some knowledge, I share what I know.

The bottom line is you cannot answer to something you do not know. I will help someone get the information if needed, but I will never say what someone will do outside of my jurisdiction. And if you do not know, then you do not know. We are not experts on everything. There are just some things we will not have the answer to. And that sometimes includes rules and situations we have never experienced.

Peace

[just another ref]

Coach: Can this player play?

Me: If he's in the book and properly attired, Julius Erving can play and it's ok with me.

[26 Year Gap]

I know one poster who might say "Don't be a plumber." In this case, he would be right. Unless the state says enforcement is up to the game officials, it is not my problem.

[Ignats75]

Prior to the season, the OHSAA sends me (and every other licensed official in Ohio) a booklet that contains all the state regs. Included in there are the participation rules. We are expected to know what is in these booklets. Mostly its a listing of activity dates and a list of scheduled rules meetings. However, as I said, the participation rules are also in this book. Therefore, while we are not the enforcement arm on them, the state does expect us to know what they are.

In Ohio, where every school is allowed to play 20 games; each player is allowed 90 quarters per season and 5 quarters per day. OT is an extension of the 4th quarter. The Post season OHSAA tournament does not count towards that total. There are always different officials for the JV and Varsity game, so we aren't aware of any violations. However, in the off chance that we become aware of a violation, we are expected to send a report to the state so that they can investigate.

[chseagle]

52.4.0 SQUAD AND CONTEST LIMITATIONS - Each squad (Varsity, J.V., Sophomore, or other squad) may schedule up to twenty (20) contests and a jamboree.
52.4.1 ADDITIONAL CONTEST ALLOWED - A twenty-first (21st) game against an international touring team is allowed once every three (3) years according to the criteria outlined in International Sanction Procedures
52.4.2 Each squad is allowed to schedule and to participate in only one (1) contest per day.
52.4.3 Each interscholastic contest played must be credited as a contest to a definite squad.
52.4.4 Subvarsity basketball players may play in two (2) subvarsity games, a total of up to eight (8) subvarsity quarters, in one (1) day, on eight (8) different occasions, provided there is a minimum of 45 minutes rest between games. Athletes would still be limited to 80 quarters in a season.
52.5.0 PLAYER LIMITATION – Each player may play in twenty (20) contests, but in doing so may not exceed eighty (80) quarters. Any appearance in a quarter, regardless of the length of time played, shall be considered as one (1) quarter. This is interpreted as meaning when a player is beckoned onto the floor and the ball becomes alive, that the player has played in one (1) quarter.
52.5.1 Players from all classifications of schools except 1B schools may appear in a maximum of four (4) quarters in one (1) day.
52.5.2 Players in 1B schools may appear in a maximum of five (5) quarters in one (1) day.
52.5.3 Players from all classifications of schools except 1B schools may participate in a maximum of 20 games during the regular season.
52.5.4 Players in 1B schools may participate in a maximum of 80 quarters during the regular season.
52.5.5 In an attempt to maintain and salvage a varsity or junior varsity 1B league schedule, an eighth grader who has participated on either a WIAA member middle school or a WIAA member junior high school team may participate on the high school team provided the total number of high school participants does not exceed specified numbers.
52.5.5.1 If the total number of high school participants is less than twice the number to field a team, eighth graders may play on the varsity squad. If eighth graders play on the varsity squad, the total number of participants on the high school team may not exceed twice the number to field a team plus two (2).
52.5.5.2 If the total number of high school participants is between two times and three times the number to field a team, eighth graders may play only on the junior varsity squad.
52.5.5.3 When utilizing eighth graders, the total combined number of high school and eighth grade players must not exceed three times the number to field an individual team.
52.5.5.4 If an eighth grader has participated in a middle level or junior high team, an eighth grader may participate in a maximum of forty quarters.
52.6.0 COUNTING QUARTERS AND CONTESTS:
52.6.1 Four (4) quarters played against the same squad is one (1) contest.
52.6.2 Four (4) quarters played against the same school, same day, different squads (i.e., varsity and junior varsity squads) is one (1) contest.
52.6.3 Four (4) quarters played against the same school, different days during the same week, different squads (i.e., varsity on Tuesday, junior varsity on Thursday) is one (1) contest. If a player exceeds four (4) quarters, that player is considered to have participated in two (2)
contests (one (1) contest on each day).
52.6.4 A total of four (4) quarters played against two (2) different schools, same day, different squads is one (1) contest.
52.6.5 One (1) or more quarters played against two (2) different schools, different days during the same week, different squads would be two (2) contests.
52.6.6 Postseason games do not count against the game or quarterly season limitation.
52.5.7 FIFTH QUARTER - A fifth quarter may be played only by freshmen basketball squads following the regular contest. The 5th quarter is for players who were not starters and who played in two (2) quarters or less of the regular contest.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by chseagle

52.4.0 SQUAD AND CONTEST LIMITATIONS - Each squad (Varsity, J.V., Sophomore, or other squad) may schedule up to twenty (20) contests and a jamboree.
52.4.1 ADDITIONAL CONTEST ALLOWED - A twenty-first (21st) game against an international touring team is allowed once every three (3) years according to the criteria outlined in International Sanction Procedures
52.4.2 Each squad is allowed to schedule and to participate in only one (1) contest per day.
52.4.3 Each interscholastic contest played must be credited as a contest to a definite squad.
52.4.4 Subvarsity basketball players may play in two (2) subvarsity games, a total of up to eight (8) subvarsity quarters, in one (1) day, on eight (8) different occasions, provided there is a minimum of 45 minutes rest between games. Athletes would still be limited to 80 quarters in a season.
52.5.0 PLAYER LIMITATION – Each player may play in twenty (20) contests, but in doing so may not exceed eighty (80) quarters. Any appearance in a quarter, regardless of the length of time played, shall be considered as one (1) quarter. This is interpreted as meaning when a player is beckoned onto the floor and the ball becomes alive, that the player has played in one (1) quarter.
52.5.1 Players from all classifications of schools except 1B schools may appear in a maximum of four (4) quarters in one (1) day.
52.5.2 Players in 1B schools may appear in a maximum of five (5) quarters in one (1) day.
52.5.3 Players from all classifications of schools except 1B schools may participate in a maximum of 20 games during the regular season.
52.5.4 Players in 1B schools may participate in a maximum of 80 quarters during the regular season.
52.5.5 In an attempt to maintain and salvage a varsity or junior varsity 1B league schedule, an eighth grader who has participated on either a WIAA member middle school or a WIAA member junior high school team may participate on the high school team provided the total number of high school participants does not exceed specified numbers.
52.5.5.1 If the total number of high school participants is less than twice the number to field a team, eighth graders may play on the varsity squad. If eighth graders play on the varsity squad, the total number of participants on the high school team may not exceed twice the number to field a team plus two (2).
52.5.5.2 If the total number of high school participants is between two times and three times the number to field a team, eighth graders may play only on the junior varsity squad.
52.5.5.3 When utilizing eighth graders, the total combined number of high school and eighth grade players must not exceed three times the number to field an individual team.
52.5.5.4 If an eighth grader has participated in a middle level or junior high team, an eighth grader may participate in a maximum of forty quarters.
52.6.0 COUNTING QUARTERS AND CONTESTS:
52.6.1 Four (4) quarters played against the same squad is one (1) contest.
52.6.2 Four (4) quarters played against the same school, same day, different squads (i.e., varsity and junior varsity squads) is one (1) contest.
52.6.3 Four (4) quarters played against the same school, different days during the same week, different squads (i.e., varsity on Tuesday, junior varsity on Thursday) is one (1) contest. If a player exceeds four (4) quarters, that player is considered to have participated in two (2)
contests (one (1) contest on each day).
52.6.4 A total of four (4) quarters played against two (2) different schools, same day, different squads is one (1) contest.
52.6.5 One (1) or more quarters played against two (2) different schools, different days during the same week, different squads would be two (2) contests.
52.6.6 Postseason games do not count against the game or quarterly season limitation.
52.5.7 FIFTH QUARTER - A fifth quarter may be played only by freshmen basketball squads following the regular contest. The 5th quarter is for players who were not starters and who played in two (2) quarters or less of the regular contest.

Could you expand upon that?

[chseagle]

The rules listed below are those in use by the Washington Interscholatic Activities Association (WIAA), not the NFHS. This shows how states can have different rules concerning the same thing.

Originally Posted by chseagle

52.4.0 SQUAD AND CONTEST LIMITATIONS - Each squad (Varsity, J.V., Sophomore, or other squad) may schedule up to twenty (20) contests and a jamboree.
52.4.1 ADDITIONAL CONTEST ALLOWED - A twenty-first (21st) game against an international touring team is allowed once every three (3) years according to the criteria outlined in International Sanction Procedures
52.4.2 Each squad is allowed to schedule and to participate in only one (1) contest per day.
52.4.3 Each interscholastic contest played must be credited as a contest to a definite squad.
52.4.4 Subvarsity basketball players may play in two (2) subvarsity games, a total of up to eight (8) subvarsity quarters, in one (1) day, on eight (8) different occasions, provided there is a minimum of 45 minutes rest between games. Athletes would still be limited to 80 quarters in a season.
52.5.0 PLAYER LIMITATION – Each player may play in twenty (20) contests, but in doing so may not exceed eighty (80) quarters. Any appearance in a quarter, regardless of the length of time played, shall be considered as one (1) quarter. This is interpreted as meaning when a player is beckoned onto the floor and the ball becomes alive, that the player has played in one (1) quarter.
52.5.1 Players from all classifications of schools except 1B schools may appear in a maximum of four (4) quarters in one (1) day.
52.5.2 Players in 1B schools may appear in a maximum of five (5) quarters in one (1) day.
52.5.3 Players from all classifications of schools except 1B schools may participate in a maximum of 20 games during the regular season.
52.5.4 Players in 1B schools may participate in a maximum of 80 quarters during the regular season.
52.5.5 In an attempt to maintain and salvage a varsity or junior varsity 1B league schedule, an eighth grader who has participated on either a WIAA member middle school or a WIAA member junior high school team may participate on the high school team provided the total number of high school participants does not exceed specified numbers.
52.5.5.1 If the total number of high school participants is less than twice the number to field a team, eighth graders may play on the varsity squad. If eighth graders play on the varsity squad, the total number of participants on the high school team may not exceed twice the number to field a team plus two (2).
52.5.5.2 If the total number of high school participants is between two times and three times the number to field a team, eighth graders may play only on the junior varsity squad.
52.5.5.3 When utilizing eighth graders, the total combined number of high school and eighth grade players must not exceed three times the number to field an individual team.
52.5.5.4 If an eighth grader has participated in a middle level or junior high team, an eighth grader may participate in a maximum of forty quarters.
52.6.0 COUNTING QUARTERS AND CONTESTS:
52.6.1 Four (4) quarters played against the same squad is one (1) contest.
52.6.2 Four (4) quarters played against the same school, same day, different squads (i.e., varsity and junior varsity squads) is one (1) contest.
52.6.3 Four (4) quarters played against the same school, different days during the same week, different squads (i.e., varsity on Tuesday, junior varsity on Thursday) is one (1) contest. If a player exceeds four (4) quarters, that player is considered to have participated in two (2)
contests (one (1) contest on each day).
52.6.4 A total of four (4) quarters played against two (2) different schools, same day, different squads is one (1) contest.
52.6.5 One (1) or more quarters played against two (2) different schools, different days during the same week, different squads would be two (2) contests.
52.6.6 Postseason games do not count against the game or quarterly season limitation.
52.5.7 FIFTH QUARTER - A fifth quarter may be played only by freshmen basketball squads following the regular contest. The 5th quarter is for players who were not starters and who played in two (2) quarters or less of the regular contest.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Prior to the season, the OHSAA sends me (and every other licensed official in Ohio) a booklet that contains all the state regs. Included in there are the participation rules. We are expected to know what is in these booklets. Mostly its a listing of activity dates and a list of scheduled rules meetings. However, as I said, the participation rules are also in this book. Therefore, while we are not the enforcement arm on them, the state does expect us to know what they are.

In Ohio, where every school is allowed to play 20 games; each player is allowed 90 quarters per season and 5 quarters per day. OT is an extension of the 4th quarter. The Post season OHSAA tournament does not count towards that total. There are always different officials for the JV and Varsity game, so we aren't aware of any violations. However, in the off chance that we become aware of a violation, we are expected to send a report to the state so that they can investigate.

Ignats,
In addition, it is a technical foul if a player participates in a 6th quarter in a day. Generally, when JV players are participating in the varsity game, the quarters available will be noted in the book. The official scorers for each game are responsible for documenting the quarters played.

Of course, if the official scorer does not properly document quarters played, it is no different than not documenting individual fouls. We can only enforce what is documented.

[Ignats75]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Ignats,
In addition, it is a technical foul if a player participates in a 6th quarter in a day. Generally, when JV players are participating in the varsity game, the quarters available will be noted in the book. The official scorers for each game are responsible for documenting the quarters played.

Of course, if the official scorer does not properly document quarters played, it is no different than not documenting individual fouls. We can only enforce what is documented.

I was involved in a game where this happened a coupleof years ago. The determination was that we should not assess a T, but file a report in Columbus. Forfeits will result. But I don't remember reading that we should assess a T in the state book. There is no justification for a T (that I am aware of) in the NFHS book. I could be wrong. I don't read the state book from cover to cover.