bad day

[rsl]

Sorry for the long post. I had the worst game ever this week (Soph Boys) due to my own mistakes, amplified by a rookie partner, rookie scorekeeper, rookie timer, and a pair of howler monkeys. But ultimately these were my mistakes, and I'd like some advice:

At start of second half, throw-in goes into backcourt and within about two steps I call a quick hand check foul on the defense. As I report the foul, I check the clock and realize it never started. Since the ball went into the backcourt, I had started a ten second count, but in the process of getting the foul I can't remember what count I reached. Without definite knowledge, I don't take any time off. Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if I don't take time off I have to take away the foul, too.

In the middle of the fourth, we have a rebounding foul in the double bonus, so we walk from one end to the other and line up the players. I bounce the ball to the shooter and immediately notice the scorekeeper holding up five fingers indicating the player has five fouls (No horn, even though we have walked the length of the floor). Rather than take the ball back, I let the player shoot the ball. After the shot misses, the coach (same coach as above) says his player gets another shot because the other team had an ineligible player on the lane. I respond that he is not ineligible until I notify his coach and the shot stands.

Here is where it gets really ugly. We get the new player in, and I bounce the ball for the second shot, the shot misses, and my partner blows his whistle before team control. Apparently the coach has convinced him he does get another shot. So now we have a whistle with no control, and we have to go to the arrow and the shooting team gets the ball back.

Now both coaches are ticked. One thinks he should get another shot, the other knows he would have got the rebound and now doesn't get the ball. About two minutes later another player fouls out and the other coach refuses to provide a sub as a protest over the whole thing, so I have to T him up.

The T finally settles things down, and we ride out the last two minutes. Here what I think I should have done:

(1) taken two seconds off the clock just for appearance sake at the start of the second half. That is where the coach started getting agitated.

(2) Blown the whistle when I realized the player had fouled out, rather than letting the shot go. Also, make sure I follow the procedure exactly for a player with five fouls, i.e., notify the player, then coach, then start the 20 second clock.

(3) Had my rookie partner administer the shot and been table side myself to deal with the coaches. Also, just had better communication with my partner.

Any thoughts? Live and learn, or quit altogether?

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by rsl

Sorry for the long post. I had the worst game ever this week (Soph Boys) due to my own mistakes, amplified by a rookie partner, rookie scorekeeper, rookie timer, and a pair of howler monkeys. But ultimately these were my mistakes, and I'd like some advice:

At start of second half, throw-in goes into backcourt and within about two steps I call a quick hand check foul on the defense. As I report the foul, I check the clock and realize it never started. Since the ball went into the backcourt, I had started a ten second count, but in the process of getting the foul I can't remember what count I reached. Without definite knowledge, I don't take any time off. Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if I don't take time off I have to take away the foul, too.

In the middle of the fourth, we have a rebounding foul in the double bonus, so we walk from one end to the other and line up the players. I bounce the ball to the shooter and immediately notice the scorekeeper holding up five fingers indicating the player has five fouls (No horn, even though we have walked the length of the floor). Rather than take the ball back, I let the player shoot the ball. After the shot misses, the coach (same coach as above) says his player gets another shot because the other team had an ineligible player on the lane. I respond that he is not ineligible until I notify his coach and the shot stands.

Here is where it gets really ugly. We get the new player in, and I bounce the ball for the second shot, the shot misses, and my partner blows his whistle before team control. Apparently the coach has convinced him he does get another shot. So now we have a whistle with no control, and we have to go to the arrow and the shooting team gets the ball back.

Now both coaches are ticked. One thinks he should get another shot, the other knows he would have got the rebound and now doesn't get the ball. About two minutes later another player fouls out and the other coach refuses to provide a sub as a protest over the whole thing, so I have to T him up.

The T finally settles things down, and we ride out the last two minutes. Here what I think I should have done:

(1) taken two seconds off the clock just for appearance sake at the start of the second half. That is where the coach started getting agitated.

(2) Blown the whistle when I realized the player had fouled out, rather than letting the shot go. Also, make sure I follow the procedure exactly for a player with five fouls, i.e., notify the player, then coach, then start the 20 second clock.

(3) Had my rookie partner administer the shot and been table side myself to deal with the coaches. Also, just had better communication with my partner.

Any thoughts? Live and learn, or quit altogether?

Busy at work, basically, coaches were trying to manipulate you. what new?

[offici88]

Live and learn. Don't make the same mistakes (too many times) again. We all have bad days. The key is that you're reflecting on what went wrong, when, and how it could be better next time.

For your situations, I would have corrected the clock. Obviously some time elapsed and you know it was less than 10 seconds.

For the 5th foul, I'd blow a double whistle for effect, take the ball from the shooter, and get the fouled out player out of the game.

Inadvertent whistles happen. Your partner's came at a very inopportune time.

Keep in mind that this was a lower-level game. The players are learning and developing as well as coaches and officials. With more experience you'll put this behind you and remember fondly of the very bad game you don't want to have again.

[jdw3018]

Tough game. Glad you are ready to learn from it!

First, on the clock situation, some will day you have to have definite knowledge of the entire amount of time in order to take it off. Others will say that if you have definite knowledge of a portion of that time, to take that much off. I'm in the second group. If you know you got to two on your count, but may have gotten to three or four, take two seconds off. You have definite knowledge of that much time.

As for the disqualified player, I actually have no problem with you waiting for the dead ball, since the ball was to remain dead after the free throw. But very clear communication with the coaches and your partner after replacing the player would have been helpful here obviously.

And the appropriate procedure after a 5th foul is to notify the coach, then the timer for the 20-second interval, then the player.

Overall, sounds like a tough go of things, but I wouldn't beat yourself up over these two parts of the game too much. You learned a lot, and the biggest lesson is probably about game management and awareness. That would have solved a lot of your issues.

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by rsl

Any thoughts? Live and learn, or quit altogether?

As a rookie, who had a game like that last week:

"never give up, never surrender"

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by rsl

Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if I don't take time off I have to take away the foul, too.

Did you ask him under what rule he got this idea?

[offici88]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Tough game. Glad you are ready to learn from it!

First, on the clock situation, some will day you have to have definite knowledge of the entire amount of time in order to take it off. Others will say that if you have definite knowledge of a portion of that time, to take that much off. I'm in the second group. If you know you got to two on your count, but may have gotten to three or four, take two seconds off. You have definite knowledge of that much time.

Great advice. In the time between realizing that the clock didn't run and addressing the coach, I, myself, would choose a number of seconds that I was absolutely sure ran off the clock and sell him one it. It's definite knowledge if you make definite call.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rsl

...

At start of second half, throw-in goes into backcourt and within about two steps I call a quick hand check foul on the defense. As I report the foul, I check the clock and realize it never started. Since the ball went into the backcourt, I had started a ten second count, but in the process of getting the foul I can't remember what count I reached. Without definite knowledge, I don't take any time off. Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if I don't take time off I have to take away the foul, too...

Well, if you started a backcourt count then that means you have definite knowledge that at least 1 second should have come off the clock.

If you remember swinging your arm at least twice, then you know that 2 seconds should come off.

Originally Posted by rsl

Now both coaches are ticked. One thinks he should get another shot, the other knows he would have got the rebound and now doesn't get the ball. About two minutes later another player fouls out and the other coach refuses to provide a sub as a protest over the whole thing, so I have to T him up.

The T finally settles things down, and we ride out the last two minutes.
...

Well, this is something that you did right, so not all was lost.

[Anchor]

Originally Posted by rsl

Sorry for the long post. I had the worst game ever this week (Soph Boys) due to my own mistakes, amplified by a rookie partner, rookie scorekeeper, rookie timer, and a pair of howler monkeys. But ultimately these were my mistakes, and I'd like some advice:

At start of second half, throw-in goes into backcourt and within about two steps I call a quick hand check foul on the defense. As I report the foul, I check the clock and realize it never started. Since the ball went into the backcourt, I had started a ten second count, but in the process of getting the foul I can't remember what count I reached. Without definite knowledge, I don't take any time off. Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if I don't take time off I have to take away the foul, too.

I don't suffer idiot coaches well. I'd have told him something like "sure, coach; but that makes the foul technical so they get 2 shots, the ball, and the arrow now. You sure that's what you want me to do?" Of course, that's not exactly factual, but I doubt the coach knew that.

Originally Posted by rsl

In the middle of the fourth, we have a rebounding foul in the double bonus, so we walk from one end to the other and line up the players. I bounce the ball to the shooter and immediately notice the scorekeeper holding up five fingers indicating the player has five fouls (No horn, even though we have walked the length of the floor). Rather than take the ball back, I let the player shoot the ball. After the shot misses, the coach (same coach as above) says his player gets another shot because the other team had an ineligible player on the lane. I respond that he is not ineligible until I notify his coach and the shot stands.

The only thing I might have done here was let your partner know what you had told the coach, which would have probably prevented the next situation. I find it infinitely helpful to fill in your partners on conversations you had with either coach.

Originally Posted by rsl

Here is where it gets really ugly. We get the new player in, and I bounce the ball for the second shot, the shot misses, and my partner blows his whistle before team control. Apparently the coach has convinced him he does get another shot. So now we have a whistle with no control, and we have to go to the arrow and the shooting team gets the ball back.

This is definitely live and learn. The good news is that, since you wrote this thread, you actually lived; so whether you learned is still kinda up in the air, I guess.

Originally Posted by rsl

Now both coaches are ticked. One thinks he should get another shot, the other knows he would have got the rebound and now doesn't get the ball. About two minutes later another player fouls out and the other coach refuses to provide a sub as a protest over the whole thing, so I have to T him up.

Sounds like you did what you had to do there.

Originally Posted by rsl

The T finally settles things down, and we ride out the last two minutes. Here what I think I should have done:

(1) taken two seconds off the clock just for appearance sake at the start of the second half. That is where the coach started getting agitated. Not sure that's a good precedent to set. It could come back to bite you in the butt later in the game when they expect you to guess again at a more critical juncture.

(2) Blown the whistle when I realized the player had fouled out, rather than letting the shot go. Also, make sure I follow the procedure exactly for a player with five fouls, i.e., notify the player, then coach, then start the 20 second clock. Ball was alive; not your job to automatically know the number of fouls; ball was to become dead following the shot. No reason in the world to interrupt the sequence because the scorer is fruity.

(3) Had my rookie partner administer the shot and been table side myself to deal with the coaches. Also, just had better communication with my partner. You might be onto something there.

Any thoughts? Live and learn (this has my vote), or quit altogether?

Over all it sounds like the coaches were trying to play you, and, although you're doing some second guessing, you really didn't get played. Partner has some maturing to do, but that's why they're called rookies. I wouldn't be too hard on yourself.

[Vinski]

Overall, I think you did alright. Sounds like a little stronger coach management might be needed though. When a coach goes ballistic, deal with the behavior.

I know it’s easier to think about what you could do better when you’re not on the court getting yelled at by a coach, but try a simple, calm comment to his unfounded requests. His wanting to negate the foul because of no time coming off the clock or the reshooting of the free throw because the disqualified player not being subbed, might be responded to with something like “That is not supported by rule, Coach”. If he goes any further then take care of business as needed.
You said things quieted down after the T. Maybe the T was needed a bit sooner.

I’ve had days very similar to the one you mentioned and I’m still trying get a better handle on those. But I’m beginning to learn that how I compose myself and maintain my focus makes the biggest difference.
BTW, that’s not the last “bad day” you’ll have.

[representing]

Originally Posted by rsl

sorry for the long post. I had the worst game ever this week (soph boys) due to my own mistakes, amplified by a rookie partner, rookie scorekeeper, rookie timer, and a pair of howler monkeys. But ultimately these were my mistakes, and i'd like some advice:

At start of second half, throw-in goes into backcourt and within about two steps i call a quick hand check foul on the defense. As i report the foul, i check the clock and realize it never started. Since the ball went into the backcourt, i had started a ten second count, but in the process of getting the foul i can't remember what count i reached. Without definite knowledge, i don't take any time off. Defensive coach goes ballistic and says if i don't take time off i have to take away the foul, too.
like some have said, i would have taken at least one second off. If you know for sure that you counted x number of times your hand was extended, then take x seconds off.

in the middle of the fourth, we have a rebounding foul in the double bonus, so we walk from one end to the other and line up the players. I bounce the ball to the shooter and immediately notice the scorekeeper holding up five fingers indicating the player has five fouls (no horn, even though we have walked the length of the floor). Rather than take the ball back, i let the player shoot the ball. After the shot misses, the coach (same coach as above) says his player gets another shot because the other team had an ineligible player on the lane. I respond that he is not ineligible until i notify his coach and the shot stands.
i may be wrong here, but this is what i would have done. Don't interrupt the first shot, balls already given to shooter, and the 5-foul player won't be interrupting flow of game at this point. Then, when tie coach would say that his player should have another shot, i would have said "coach, the player was not involve with any further plays after the clock was dead for his 5th foul. I cannot give your player another shot as it was a fta." it is not one of the five correctable errors.

here is where it gets really ugly. We get the new player in, and i bounce the ball for the second shot, the shot misses, and my partner blows his whistle before team control. Apparently the coach has convinced him he does get another shot. So now we have a whistle with no control, and we have to go to the arrow and the shooting team gets the ball back.
correct! Inadvertent whistle with no team control. I probably would have t'd up the coach for trying to take advantage of the rookie, but that would have depend on the nature of the game. I wasn't there, so i couldn't tell you for sure on t.

now both coaches are ticked. One thinks he should get another shot, the other knows he would have got the rebound and now doesn't get the ball. About two minutes later another player fouls out and the other coach refuses to provide a sub as a protest over the whole thing, so i have to t him up.
technically, you could have ended the game, as that would be a forfeiture brought on by the coach. However, i would have t'd him up too and see if that would get him to put in another player. If not after that, then automatic forfeit.

the t finally settles things down, and we ride out the last two minutes. Here what i think i should have done:

(1) taken two seconds off the clock just for appearance sake at the start of the second half. That is where the coach started getting agitated.

(2) blown the whistle when i realized the player had fouled out, rather than letting the shot go. Also, make sure i follow the procedure exactly for a player with five fouls, i.e., notify the player, then coach, then start the 20 second clock.

(3) had my rookie partner administer the shot and been table side myself to deal with the coaches. Also, just had better communication with my partner.

Any thoughts? Live and learn, or quit altogether?

read red print above for my thoughts...

[Loudwhistle]

RSL,
Don't feel too bad about what happened! Of course learn from it and apply that wisdom to future games. I'll bet just about every reff on here has had a similar experience. I find myself reliving the game the next day and its hard for me to put behind mistakes I made. I DO NOT make the same mistake again in future games. You typing all this out is another way of really pounding it out in your head so it doesn't happen again! It gets better the longer you reff!

[Adam]

Representing, can you tell me which rule says the coach has forfeited the game by not providing his sub within 20 seconds? Hint:It's not there.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by representing

technically, you could have ended the game, as that would be a forfeiture brought on by the coach. However, i would have t'd him up too and see if that would get him to put in another player. If not after that, then automatic forfeit.

Forfeiting a game is the last thing you ever want to do, under any situation.

[Adam]

Regarding the OP.
Whether you take time off the clock isn't really relevant to the coach's rant. He's flat our wrong about the rule, and he's wrong to go ballistic. If he's been a howler monkey already, this is a good spot for a T. If you want to be nice, "Coach, I understand you disagree with me on the rule, but I can't have you yelling at me."

On your second situation, I'd be tempted to let him know that he's now incorrectly challenged me on two rules in the same game, and I have a three strikes policy. In reality, I would have already talked to him after the first incident about proper behavior or I would have T'd him; either way, he's less likely to get stupid here. If he does, easy T.