It lasted until Game 9

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by zm1283

The varsity season just got into full swing this week. My partner T'd a coach in a girls game on Tuesday for screaming across the court (After he had warned her once) because she thought her girls were getting fouled when they were really just getting their shots blocked. When he went to administer the FTs, I was talking to her and when I explained that there wasn't contact and they were clean blocks, she said that it doesn't matter if there was contact because "She tomahawked her on that shot".

How would you feel, if your partner came over during this conversation and said, "What is this conversation about? I gave her the T and can explain anything immediately following."

These situations irritate me to no end. Quick story. I gave a coach a T several seasons ago and he was yelling across the court to find out what he did. Since he actions were still unacceptable, I just ignored him. My partner comes trotting over to me and says something along the lines of the coach wanted to know what he did. I told him I would tell the coach once I'm in front of him during the natural flow of the game. In the locker room, my partner told me that I HAVE to tell the coach what he did. I forget all the details of our conversation, but we did not see eye to eye on this issue.

I have also had pregames with D1 officials who mention this. Basically, it looks like you are consoling a coach who's actions just warranted a T from your partner. Some will disagree, but what can be gained from explaining what your partner called. When this happens and I have to go table side, I will be more on the court and the coach will be looking at my backside. If the coach continues with the behavior that earned him the T in the first place another one will follow.

[tomegun]

I gave out a double T last night and the only thing that saved these two young men is the fact that I'm a kindler, gentler Tom.

[Forksref]

You never have to explain what your partner did. He can do that. And, you may not be able to explain it accurately.

[tomegun]

Forksref, you are saying that to zm1283 right? If I'm the R I will always tell the coaches up front that we will try to answer their questions when we get back in front of them. I ask that they not yell across the court.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by tomegun

How would you feel, if your partner came over during this conversation and said, "What is this conversation about? I gave her the T and can explain anything immediately following."

These situations irritate me to no end. Quick story. I gave a coach a T several seasons ago and he was yelling across the court to find out what he did. Since he actions were still unacceptable, I just ignored him. My partner comes trotting over to me and says something along the lines of the coach wanted to know what he did. I told him I would tell the coach once I'm in front of him during the natural flow of the game. In the locker room, my partner told me that I HAVE to tell the coach what he did. I forget all the details of our conversation, but we did not see eye to eye on this issue.

I have also had pregames with D1 officials who mention this. Basically, it looks like you are consoling a coach who's actions just warranted a T from your partner. Some will disagree, but what can be gained from explaining what your partner called. When this happens and I have to go table side, I will be more on the court and the coach will be looking at my backside. If the coach continues with the behavior that earned him the T in the first place another one will follow.

Regarding your situation, not sure I'm following the sequence of events on your T. You went tableside and reported it, did he ask why he was T'd at that point? I think he's entitled to know why the T.

Personally, I'd give a short, possibly one word reason for T. "you were warned" "Disrespect Coach", "Coach you used profanity" and the like. I answered his direct question and we move on.

And if his actions were still unacceptable, I would inform him as such. I may choose not to be tableside in this case to get away from him and we pregame that. I don't have a problem with said coach talking with my partner within the framework of the game. Hopefully it can diffuse the situation.

And if it doesn't, I want another member of the crew to whack him. Again, all pregamed

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Regarding your situation, not sure I'm following the sequence of events on your T. You went tableside and reported it, did he ask why he was T'd at that point? I think he's entitled to know why the T.

I went across from the table. This happened several years ago and I'm not sure if I was just getting away from him or I was doing what that association asked us to. When I called the T, the coach was acting like an idiot - no explanation necessary IMO. Also, this was the second half and my partner was standing directly in front of the coach. Why does this matter? It matters because we were on the far end from the coach and my partner shouldn't have been right in front of him.

Oh, two more things on this guy. 1. He was on Georgetown's teams when the program was near the top and I loved those teams. 2. I had him during a summer league game the following summer. He came in with his team, but he left before them. I was consistent with my feelings concerning his behavior.

Originally Posted by fullor30

Personally, I'd give a short, possibly one word reason for T. "you were warned" "Disrespect Coach", "Coach you used profanity" and the like. I answered his direct question and we move on.

And if his actions were still unacceptable, I would inform him as such. I may choose not to be tableside in this case to get away from him and we pregame that.

I don't give a coach a T unless it is obvious to everyone in the facility or the coach says something that crosses my line - like a racial comment (this happened before). That being the case, the coaches I T generally know why they got it. Most of the time the coach doesn't really want the answer anyway. Remember, all this is from my experience.

On the flip side, last night the coach asked me why I gave one of his players a T and I answered him right away. This coach was also working his A$$ off to get his players to run his stuff and not messing with us.

Originally Posted by fullor30

I don't have a problem with said coach talking with my partner within the framework of the game. Hopefully it can diffuse the situation. And if it doesn't, I want another member of the crew to whack him. Again, all pregamed

Think about this for a second and please don't get defensive. If your favorite "Big Dog" super duper NCAA official told you, "If one of us gives a coach a T, the other officials should not engage the coach until the calling official does" would you listen and make that a part of your game? If your answer is no, then you may not listen to anyone. If your answer is yes, then you just heard it - second hand - from a big time tournament official.

If we are working together and I give the coach a T, what could you say to the coach at this point? To make matters worse, many officials would be right next to the coach allowing the coach to say God knows what in a low voice. Physical distance means the coach will have to talk to the other official in a voice loud enough where what he/she says can be heard by others.

I think we have to ask ourselves what talking to an adult is going to do once our partner has deemed his/her actions worthy of a T. If talking resolves the conflict, why didn't it work the first time before the T?

I know this reply is long, but stay with me please.

If I T a coach and the coach is coming after me, why shouldn't I T him up again as long as both are warranted? If the coach is acting like an idiot in general, if I T him up one of my partners can come in and give the second one. But, if I wait a bit and try to give him/her a chance to calm down, a second (earned) T shouldn't be a problem. YMMV, but if I gave a coach two I'm confident my reasoning would be solid.

Many years ago I was doing a high school game in Maryland with two of my good friends. A coach was all over one of my partners from the start of the game. My partner gave him a T and the coach continued to be all over him, it actually got worse. This coach literally gets so upset that he foams at the mouth! Anyway, my other partner started to move in for the second T and I almost physically stopped him. He immediately understood what I was doing and the official who gave the first gave the second. We didn't hear nothing about this from anyone because this coach made is personal towards an official and that official was a big boy all day long. Like I said, YMMV.

[zm1283]

FWIW, the plays that she was screaming about happened right in front of me when I was Lead. He just happened to be in front of her as Trail when he whacked her.

Our association tells us that if you T a coach, you ALWAYS go administer the free throws and have your partner stand next to the coach. She was wanting to talk about it, and in order to get him away from her, I had to jump in the middle of it.

She knew what she got T'd for, she just wanted to complain about the plays which led up to it. I didn't have to "explain something for him".

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by zm1283

FWIW, the plays that she was screaming about happened right in front of me when I was Lead. He just happened to be in front of her as Trail when he whacked her.

Our association tells us that if you T a coach, you ALWAYS go administer the free throws and have your partner stand next to the coach. She was wanting to talk about it, and in order to get him away from her, I had to jump in the middle of it.

She knew what she got T'd for, she just wanted to complain about the plays which led up to it. I didn't have to "explain something for him".

Not to play Monday morning quarterback, but...

Could you have found a way to discuss her concerns, at least tell her what you saw and/or briefly explain your call, before she got to the screaming point? If so, might that have de-escalated her or even prevented her from getting "escalated" in the first place?

[BktBallRef]

There are times when it's better that a partner be the next official to talk to a coach.

There are times when no one should talk to the coach until the calling official talks to him.

There is no "One size fits all," for these types of things. Anyone that advocates such is wrong.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

There are times when it's better that a partner be the next official to talk to a coach.

There are times when no one should talk to the coach until the calling official talks to him.

There is no "One size fits all," for these types of things. Anyone that advocates such is wrong.

Can you give an example of one of those times? I'm not being sarcastic or starting a "pissing match." You added something to the conversation and I want to know specifics so I can digest what you are saying. The statement I made above honestly didn't come from me, but in the situation I described there was no reason for my partner to have his A$$ back there talking to the coach.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Not to play Monday morning quarterback, but...

Could you have found a way to discuss her concerns, at least tell her what you saw and/or briefly explain your call, before she got to the screaming point? If so, might that have de-escalated her or even prevented her from getting "escalated" in the first place?

Not everyone can be "de-escalated." There's a local coach who I've already whacked this season. Why? Because he doesn't know how to talk to people. I've worked his games for the past 5 years and every year, I think, "Maybe he's grown up." So each time I see him, I once again make the mistake of trying to be approachable, he steps on his dick and I end up sticking him.

I'm made up my mind that I am no longer going to be approachable with him. I'll nod yes or no and that's it. I've even told my crew that if I talk to him, they have permission to head slap me.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Not everyone can be "de-escalated." There's a local coach who I've already whacked this season. Why? Because he doesn't know how to talk to people. I've worked his games for the past 5 years and every year, I think, "Maybe he's grown up." So each time I see him, I once again make the mistake of trying to be approachable, he steps on his dick and I end up sticking him.

I'm made up my mind that I am no longer going to be approachable with him. I'll nod yes or no and that's it. I've even told my crew that if I talk to him, they have permission to head slap me.

I realize that. The question was meant to be an honest inquiry, knowing full well the answer may be "we tried, it couldn't be done."

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Not to play Monday morning quarterback, but...

Could you have found a way to discuss her concerns, at least tell her what you saw and/or briefly explain your call, before she got to the screaming point? If so, might that have de-escalated her or even prevented her from getting "escalated" in the first place?

No, and I'll explain why.

This team was AWFUL. I'm talking couldn't get the ball across the division line awful. The play she screamed on was the first or second time they finally got it across half court, and my partner warned her after it happened the first time. (I was L and he was T and her bench was on the opposite end) This was the first quarter still, and it was the first time she had said anything to us because up to that point, the other team was stealing inbounds passes and shooting layups.

The next time they got the ball across the division line and in the paint after he warned her is when he T'd her. Her girls were getting their shots blocked cleanly and she was pissed because she was down by 20+ already in the first quarter, so she decided to scream again about "You've gotta call that!!". I actually did finally call a shooting foul but just before I blew my whistle, he blew his for the T on her.

Both times she screamed I was L and he was T. We didn't have a chance to talk to her because her hysterical screaming was the only thing she said. She was warned for it once and was T'd the next time.

I agree with whoever said they don't like their partner going to talk to the coach after they have T'd him/her. I think it makes it appear that he is buddying up to him/her and playing the "good cop", but in this instance I had to get in between them so we could move on with the game. He was going to let her stand there and eat on his a** for five minutes if she wanted to.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by zm1283

...but in this instance I had to get in between them so we could move on with the game. He was going to let her stand there and eat on his a** for five minutes if she wanted to.

There's a reason the fed gives the option (and many associations/camps/supervisors will more-or-less say mandatory) to go away from the table after a T.

I had a partner at an NCAA-W camp last summer (we were using fed rules and mechanics) get his *** chewed for choosing to stay. My other partner (I was L) went across to switch with him. He wanted to stay and "handle" the situation. His handling it ended up with him calling a second T.

First, the evaluator chewed P1's a$$ for staying. Called it ego. Based on how the first T went down, he needed no explanation and nothing good could come from P1's staying.

Then turned to P2 and said, "Good job of going to get him, but be stronger next time! Once you go over there you tell him in simple terms that you're there now."

Then turned to me and said, "You're smart enough to see that wasn't going to end well. You saw P1 was being an idiot, and P2 was weak. You don't have many options being at Lead, but I'd have had no problem if you would have gone and taken control of that situation. Just get P1 out of there."

It was fun.

My entire rambling point is, there's a huge difference between a partner buddying up a coach after a T, and getting the calling partner out of there before a tense situation escalates.