The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 03, 2009, 12:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2
Alternating Possession Question

I'm sure this has been covered, but I've just registered to this forum to try and find out if I was correct in something I did the other night at the first game of the year. I'm not an official, merely a timer, so thanks for allowing me to invade your turf.

Alternating possesion situation. Team A throwing in. On the throw in pass, Team B kicks the ball (the first touch is the kick) and is called for the violation. I immediately tell our scorekeeper, possesion DOES NOT change in that situation, the next held ball stays with Team A.

Of course, the next held ball was six seconds later and everyone starts lining up for a throw in by Team B. I blow the horn to point out that it should be Team A's ball.

If I was wrong, I'll eat humble pie. If I'm right, I will wonder how officials (the two JV officials working the game and the one varsity official there to observe them) can walk on the floor and not know the rules.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 03, 2009, 12:34pm
M.A.S.H.
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,030
You were correct. The arrow doesn't change since there was a kicking violation by Team B.

4.42.5 Situation:

Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. A1's throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2's kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the throw-in was not contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended. The arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. (6-4-4)

Last edited by tjones1; Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 01:00pm. Reason: Added Case play
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 03, 2009, 12:40pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timer Dave View Post
If I was wrong, I'll eat humble pie. If I'm right, I will wonder how officials (the two JV officials working the game and the one varsity official there to observe them) can walk on the floor and not know the rules.
You were right, but relax. How often have you seen this happen? It's rare, which just means a lot of officials may not be tuned in to it; especially at the JV level.

Why does the varsity ref matter? Were the refs consulting with him during the game?

Also, it might matter where you are. In Iowa girls ball, until a couple years ago, the arrow switched as soon as the ball was handed to the thrower. For officials who worked both, we had to remember which was which during this rare situation.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.

Last edited by Adam; Thu Dec 03, 2009 at 12:42pm.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 03, 2009, 12:41pm
certified Hot Mom tester
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: only in my own mind, such as it is
Posts: 12,918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timer Dave View Post
I'm not an official, merely a timer...
Don't put yourself down. The only personnel at the game we would refer to as "merely" are coaches.
__________________
Yom HaShoah
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 03, 2009, 05:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1 View Post
You were correct. The arrow doesn't change since there was a kicking violation by Team B.
I greatly appreciate working with a good table crew.
There is nothing that can make a game go South quicker than problems with the book, arrow, and clock.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 10, 2009, 04:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Somewhere on the earth
Posts: 1,601
Concerning the AP, I've been told never to switch until the ball is put into play. I was retold that Tuesday Night during the Girls' JV Game as well. Is there a NFHS Rule that says that the scorebook has to keep track of the AP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
You were right, but relax. How often have you seen this happen? It's rare, which just means a lot of officials may not be tuned in to it; especially at the JV level.

Why does the varsity ref matter? Were the refs consulting with him during the game?

Also, it might matter where you are. In Iowa girls ball, until a couple years ago, the arrow switched as soon as the ball was handed to the thrower. For officials who worked both, we had to remember which was which during this rare situation.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 10, 2009, 05:09am
APG APG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,889
Rule 2-11 Scorer's Duties
The scorer shall:

Article 7....Record the jump balls for the alternating-possession procedure and be responsible for the possession arrow.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 10, 2009, 05:28am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle View Post
Concerning the AP, I've been told never to switch until the ball is put into play. I was retold that Tuesday Night during the Girls' JV Game as well. Is there a NFHS Rule that says that the scorebook has to keep track of the AP?
You desire so strongly to keep the book during Varsity games, yet you don't know that one of the scorer's duties is to handle the AP arrow?

I would say that you aren't ready yet.

You really need to tone it down and be patient. You have a great deal to learn before you can adequately handle that job.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 10, 2009, 05:30am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Somewhere on the earth
Posts: 1,601
I couldn't remember if there was or not, thanks for the refresher.

I also reread the "Instructions to Scorers" & under the duties for During the Game it says the same thing, how I have been not seeing that I have no idea.

But then it's been about 9 months since I last saw anything Basketball related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
Rule 2-11 Scorer's Duties
The scorer shall:

Article 7....Record the jump balls for the alternating-possession procedure and be responsible for the possession arrow.

Last edited by chseagle; Thu Dec 10, 2009 at 05:41am.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 10, 2009, 05:59am
9/11 - Never Forget
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,642
Send a message via Yahoo to grunewar
Question CHS - I'm still trying to figure you out.......

Yesterday you posted, "Had this happen during the girls' Varsity Game tonight:"

Today you posted"
Quote:
Originally Posted by chseagle View Post
But then it's been about 9 months since I last saw anything Basketball related.
__________________
There was the person who sent ten puns to friends, with the hope that at least one of the puns would make them laugh. No pun in ten did.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 10, 2009, 06:16am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Somewhere on the earth
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by grunewar View Post
Yesterday you posted, "Had this happen during the girls' Varsity Game tonight:"

Today you posted"
I've been doing more scoreboard/timer & shot clock, that I lost focus on the regulations concerning the scorebook. The last time I actually did anything with the scorebook was back in 1998 when I was Boys' Basketball Manager. Nothing was told to me then that the scorebook had to keep track of the AP.

It had been about nine months since I had seen/read anything concerning high school basketball before the game the other night.

The last thing I read before the other night concerning High School Basketball rules/regulations was that Washington State had adopted the 35-second shot clock for Boys.

As of late, I pay attention to the scorebook in situations where the scoreboard shows one thing, & the scorebook another or to keep track of player fouls.

Call this a lapse of knowledge

Last edited by chseagle; Thu Dec 10, 2009 at 06:20am.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 10, 2009, 07:31pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Scorer, Scoreboard, Scorebook ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
The scorer shall: Record the jump balls for the alternating-possession procedure and be responsible for the possession arrow.
I know what the rule states, but around here, the person taking care of the "scoreboard", that is, the clock, posted score, posted fouls, posted bonus, etc., who we would probably call the "timer", normally controls the possession arrow at the table, which is usually right in front of the scoreboard console, while the "scorer" only takes care of the "scorebook". Scorebooks have an area to keep track of alternating possessions, but not all "scorers" use this.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 10, 2009, 07:53pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Somewhere on the earth
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I know what the rule states, but around here, the person taking care of the "scoreboard", that is, the clock, posted score, posted fouls, posted bonus, etc., who we would probably call the "timer", normally controls the possession arrow at the table, which is usually right in front of the scoreboard console, while the "scorer" only takes care of the "scorebook". Scorebooks have an area to keep track of alternating possessions, but not all "scorers" use this.
Unfortunately around here in my neck of the woods, the same can be said. The only scorebooks I really have noticed keeping track of the AP has been the Varsity books.

Hopefully before the games on Saturday, I'll be able to ask the Varsity Coaches, how it's normally done in the books so that I can get the training in case I do happen to do scorebook. I'm one of those people that if the person isn't doing their job properly they need to be trained or replaced by someone that has the training. Also I'm strict about who's around the table (friends, cell phones, etc.).
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 10, 2009, 09:49pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I know what the rule states, but around here, the person taking care of the "scoreboard", that is, the clock, posted score, posted fouls, posted bonus, etc., who we would probably call the "timer", normally controls the possession arrow at the table, which is usually right in front of the scoreboard console, while the "scorer" only takes care of the "scorebook". Scorebooks have an area to keep track of alternating possessions, but not all "scorers" use this.
They should. Good scorers will also mark the time of each AP usage; just as they do the timeouts. To me, the visual is like the scoreboard. It should match the book, but if it doesn't we go by the book.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Alternating Possession ? JasonTX Basketball 8 Thu Dec 14, 2006 08:35am
Alternating Possession Question OFISHE8 Basketball 6 Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:57am
Fun Test Question: Alternating Possession / Throw-in NYBAREF Basketball 7 Wed Feb 19, 2003 02:17pm
Alternating possession question. Suppref Basketball 3 Thu Mar 22, 2001 03:36pm
Alternating Possession Question jshock Basketball 11 Mon Dec 04, 2000 08:34am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:11am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1